18.759375 20.419375 - Well, hello there, Mary Beth.
20.419375 23.619375 Welcome to almost summer.
23.619375 26.319375 - All right, I'm excited to be here.
26.319375 28.399375 Excited for the changing of seasons
28.399375 32.599375 and excited to have some more daylight.
32.599375 33.759375 - That's right.
33.759375 36.799375 And the leisurely days of summer,
36.799375 40.199375 lots of relaxation, cold glasses,
40.199375 43.239375 lemonade, long walks on the beach,
43.239375 44.399375 all the things.
44.399375 46.639375 - Minus the sand on your feet.
46.639375 47.479375 - Not my favorite.
47.479375 48.319375 - Yeah.
48.319375 50.839375 And as far as leisurely and relaxing,
50.839375 55.839375 we will be welcoming back into our home 24/7 are boys.
55.839375 56.959375 So maybe.
56.959375 58.639375 - That's right.
58.639375 60.719375 Maybe they could have some leisure and relaxing.
60.719375 64.919375 But the tradition of summer vacation from school
64.919375 67.919375 is not necessarily a vacation for parents.
67.919375 68.759375 - That's right, exactly.
68.759375 70.119375 I always think of this Christmas song
70.119375 71.359375 that it talks about.
71.359375 73.559375 The line that says a mom and dad can hardly wait
73.559375 74.959375 for school to start again.
74.959375 77.319375 It's also a summer song, too.
77.319375 79.839375 Yeah, but we have some traditions in our family
79.839375 81.039375 for the summer.
81.039375 82.599375 Our summer has already started off
82.599375 84.959375 with Memorial Day camping trip with our family.
84.959375 87.839375 And then we love to go to the beach
87.839375 89.159375 and we go to the same beach.
89.159375 90.519375 So it's a tradition for us.
90.519375 91.919375 I know a lot of families do that.
91.919375 93.919375 What are your family traditions in the summer?
93.919375 95.159375 - In the summer.
95.159375 97.679375 We have been going the past several years
97.679375 100.639375 to the Memorial Day parade in downtown Kennett Square.
100.639375 101.559375 We really like that one.
102.519375 105.399375 We go to the same spot, sit with the same folks every year.
105.399375 108.159375 So that's been a fun tradition to kick off the summer.
108.159375 110.999375 And we don't go to the same place every summer.
110.999375 112.239375 We don't do the same thing every summer.
112.239375 115.199375 But we do get to the beach pretty much every summer.
115.199375 118.079375 We live close enough here in this area
118.079375 120.879375 to be within a couple hours of variety of options.
120.879375 121.719375 I call it the beach.
121.719375 124.119375 Sometimes it's the shore or the bay.
124.119375 127.599375 Well, here's the question, Mary Beth.
127.599375 131.839375 Do your summer traditions prevent you from enjoying summer?
132.399375 137.399375 - Hmm, hopefully they would add to our enjoyment of summer.
137.399375 140.159375 - Sometimes they don't though.
140.159375 143.279375 Sometimes you're so focused on going to the beach
143.279375 146.239375 and you pack all the kids in the car and you go
146.239375 150.359375 and you spend $500 a night for some gross hotel
150.359375 152.679375 that's like on a beach block
152.679375 155.439375 and you're overeating on the boardwalk
155.439375 156.359375 and all the things.
156.359375 158.239375 You get the sunburn and you come home
158.239375 159.839375 and you're absolutely exhausted
159.839375 161.399375 and you're like, wait a minute.
161.399375 162.399375 - Was it worth it?
162.399375 163.239375 - Was it worth it?
163.239375 166.639375 Is this tradition preventing me from enjoying summer?
166.639375 174.079375 What other traditions Sarah might be roadblocks for us
174.079375 176.719375 instead of helps?
176.719375 179.759375 - Well, it will surprise no one who listens
179.759375 181.319375 to our podcast frequently
181.319375 184.839375 that we're gonna tie this into our topic, yes.
184.839375 189.119375 There are traditions that we have in church
189.119375 194.119375 that sometimes keep us from our relationship with God.
194.119375 199.519375 Now, where do we cling to a church tradition
199.519375 204.319375 that is not what God had in mind for us?
204.319375 207.959375 - Hmm, well, we only have one episode.
207.959375 211.199375 So, let's dive right in.
211.199375 213.119375 We're gonna hit the highlights of these.
213.119375 217.879375 - Well, let's start with what do we mean by a church tradition?
218.999375 223.999375 Let's separate that from essential aspects
223.999375 225.159375 of faith and worship.
225.159375 227.959375 What is something that is added on
227.959375 233.039375 as a human tradition that we might want to think through?
233.039375 234.039375 - Right, exactly.
234.039375 237.559375 'Cause there are certainly some symbols or sacraments
237.559375 240.239375 that we do that were commanded to do
240.239375 243.799375 that can add a whole layer of complexity.
243.799375 245.159375 But before we get into those,
245.159375 248.399375 let's just talk about things like dress code.
248.399375 253.399375 Sometimes certain types of congregations or religions
253.399375 256.239375 will dress a certain way.
256.239375 257.519375 I was raised in the Mennonite church,
257.519375 259.879375 so I think of the Mennonites and the Amish.
259.879375 263.159375 They've deliberately chosen to remain very simple
263.159375 265.119375 and modest in their dress.
265.119375 269.639375 And that is something that is to help them focus
269.639375 273.239375 on being in the world, but not of the world.
273.239375 277.919375 And then also focus more on works of God's kingdom
277.919375 280.559375 and the way they can live out their faith
280.559375 283.439375 instead of being caught up in things of the world.
283.439375 288.439375 So when you go to church, do you feel like you have to dress up
288.439375 293.439375 to a certain level that's appropriate?
293.439375 295.439375 Do you feel that if you're not dressed up,
295.439375 296.919375 you can't go to church?
296.919375 301.479375 Or do you go to church and see people
301.479375 305.879375 that are wearing workout shorts and slides
305.879375 310.039375 and dirty t-shirt and feel like they shouldn't be there?
310.039375 311.599375 - Yeah, there's a wide spectrum.
311.599375 313.799375 And I think the point we're making
313.799375 315.599375 with any of these traditions we're gonna discuss
315.599375 318.079375 is it varies from church to church,
318.079375 319.659375 congregation to congregation.
319.659375 325.719375 And if there is no clear standard provided in scripture,
325.719375 329.239375 this is what everyone must wear to
329.239375 330.599375 worship the Lord every week.
330.599375 331.439375 - Yeah.
331.439375 333.679375 - Then whatever that standard is that we're making,
333.679375 337.399375 we need to evaluate, is this just something
337.399375 339.679375 we're adding on as human tradition?
339.679375 344.679375 I am a very casual person and often wear casual things
344.679375 349.759375 to church yet that end of the spectrum tends to bother me.
349.759375 352.079375 I will confess that when I show up on especially
352.079375 354.799375 on like Easter Sunday or Christmas Eve
354.799375 358.399375 and people are not dressed up, I'm a bit of a scoffer.
358.399375 362.959375 I'm like, they can't even dress up for Easter.
362.959375 363.799375 - Yeah.
363.799375 365.279375 - And so I have that human tradition
365.279375 367.039375 that I hold onto a little too tightly.
367.039375 368.799375 - Yeah, I grew up in the Mennonite church
368.799375 371.559375 and while we didn't wear caped dresses,
371.559375 375.119375 we did usually wear skirts to church.
375.119375 377.039375 You needed to wear a skirt or a dress to church.
377.039375 378.159375 That's the way it was.
378.159375 380.079375 And the head coverings were very much a thing
380.079375 381.479375 in church we wore head coverings.
381.479375 384.319375 And it's funny, I, a couple times.
384.319375 386.639375 I'm like, I would like to wear my head covering to church,
386.639375 388.719375 but then I'm like, wait a minute.
388.719375 392.279375 That might cause problems for everybody else
392.279375 393.799375 because they're gonna be like, why is she wearing that?
393.799375 395.159375 What's going on?
395.159375 398.039375 And then I'm like, but I wanna, so here's, here I am
398.039375 402.599375 spending all this time caught up in this tradition
402.599375 405.679375 that I mean, yes, there's some scriptural reference for that.
405.679375 408.959375 But even to this day, if I'm wearing a baseball cap
408.959375 413.079375 and we're praying somewhere, I do not take my hat off
413.079375 415.879375 because I am supposed to have my head covered to the Lord.
415.879375 419.879375 But I do require my son to take his hat off.
419.879375 422.919375 So, I don't know, like in my mind.
422.919375 425.239375 - But is that just a Western thing?
425.239375 427.439375 Does that happen in other places in the world?
427.439375 428.279375 - I don't know.
428.279375 431.159375 I mean, taking your hat off as a sign of respect.
431.159375 431.999375 - Yeah.
431.999375 433.599375 - But then do I take my hat off for the flag?
433.599375 436.479375 I've started to, because that's the flag.
436.479375 437.799375 Oh, see, this is a no.
437.799375 439.799375 It all gets intertwined with culture
439.799375 443.519375 and all these other things that make up our lives.
443.519375 444.359375 - Yeah.
444.359375 446.839375 - I mean, there are some cultures that don't even wear hats.
446.839375 447.679375 - That's true.
447.679375 448.519375 - So like, what do we do with that?
448.519375 450.279375 Yeah, I guess maybe they use a scarf to cover their head?
450.279375 451.119375 I don't know.
451.119375 451.959375 Well, okay.
451.959375 454.399375 So here, let's give another example of one of these.
454.399375 456.919375 Churchy language.
456.919375 460.479375 How often do we change the way we talk in church
460.479375 463.679375 from the way we talk every day?
463.679375 466.679375 And yeah, I get it.
466.679375 468.439375 It's a sign of respect and so forth.
468.439375 471.439375 But like, why are we living differently?
471.439375 473.559375 Why do we feel like when we walk into a building,
473.559375 476.079375 we suddenly have to put on a different persona?
476.079375 478.039375 - What kind of speech are you talking about?
478.039375 479.039375 Can you give us an example?
479.039375 480.679375 - Oh, you're gonna put me on the spot.
480.679375 486.359375 - Any sort of thing that might be like a virtue signal
486.359375 490.039375 or like a way of speaking about a topic
490.039375 492.599375 that would be churchy, I guess.
492.599375 495.759375 And then outside of church,
495.759375 498.799375 if we talk to friends that are not Christians,
498.799375 500.319375 like we wouldn't say those things.
500.319375 501.599375 We would say something else.
501.599375 502.919375 We would mean the same thing,
502.919375 504.839375 but we would just use different words.
504.839375 507.079375 So like, why do we feel like we have to use those words
507.079375 508.479375 when we're in church?
508.479375 509.319375 - Hmm.
509.319375 512.159375 I never thought about that.
512.159375 516.119375 - I thought you were going the direction of
516.119375 522.239375 there is definitely a can-be, can-be,
522.239375 524.159375 a subculture of like,
524.159375 527.879375 Christianese, like words in vocab that,
527.879375 528.719375 - Yeah.
528.719375 531.479375 - The Christian subculture uses.
531.479375 534.999375 - Yeah, I have experienced this a lot in prayer,
534.999375 537.679375 like group prayer.
537.679375 539.479375 People will kind of say the same thing
539.479375 541.359375 and I don't wanna give examples to offend anybody.
541.359375 546.439375 But they only picked it up because it's just like,
546.439375 548.519375 what they hear people say a lot.
548.519375 549.519375 - I sure just say it.
549.519375 550.519375 - Yeah.
550.519375 552.359375 - But would you really pray like that
552.359375 554.719375 in your own personal prayer time with God?
554.719375 555.639375 I don't know.
555.639375 556.879375 - You know, does that make sense?
556.879375 557.719375 - Yeah, it does.
557.719375 561.759375 Like, do I pray the same repentance prayer
561.759375 565.359375 corporately that I do in my own private time with God?
565.359375 567.759375 And here we go, okay, now listen,
567.759375 570.479375 let's take a pot shot at trustworthy podcast here
570.479375 572.279375 because we had this whole episode
572.279375 574.839375 about the difference between personal and corporate prayers
574.839375 576.359375 and like what's appropriate.
576.359375 578.759375 But no, I think I know what you're getting at.
578.759375 581.919375 And it's the same, even though it was slightly different
581.919375 584.479375 variation of what I said, I think it's the same kind of thing.
584.479375 589.479375 Like, are we changing the way that we are talking
590.079375 594.199375 or expressing ideas just because we feel like
594.199375 596.399375 there's a standard out there that we have to meet.
596.399375 598.319375 I mean, that's what we're really talking about, right?
598.319375 601.239375 - And are we more focused on the standard
601.239375 603.439375 than on meeting with the Lord and worshiping the Lord?
603.439375 604.279375 - Right, exactly.
604.279375 607.159375 Is a standard that we're trying to get to,
607.159375 608.879375 and here's the other thing too,
608.879375 612.999375 that we want other people to know
612.999375 615.399375 that we are meeting this standard.
615.399375 619.039375 Is that preventing us from another perfect example
619.039375 623.559375 of this actually, which recently on a vacation
623.559375 625.639375 and it was over Easter.
625.639375 627.879375 And so of course, we weren't gonna be at our home church
627.879375 631.119375 for Easter, but there was a service available,
631.119375 632.719375 it was limited services where we were,
632.719375 634.799375 but there was one service available
634.799375 637.239375 and it was a different faith tradition.
637.239375 640.039375 One that fences the table, there we go.
640.039375 641.959375 I'm using church talk right there.
641.959375 646.959375 One that requires you to have a certain qualification
647.719375 650.279375 or have completed certain certifications
650.279375 651.359375 or whatever through the church
651.359375 653.959375 in order to be able to take communion.
653.959375 657.399375 And I always take communion when I have the opportunity
657.399375 659.919375 because I love the symbolism of it,
659.919375 661.999375 and especially on Easter,
661.999375 664.119375 it would be something that would be very important to me
664.119375 665.839375 to be able to protect of that.
665.839375 669.119375 And so I was, I think this was a good Friday service.
669.119375 671.959375 So I was in the service with my son
671.959375 675.999375 and it came time to approach to take the Lord's Supper
675.999375 678.159375 and I didn't go.
678.159375 679.479375 Because I was like, well,
679.479375 681.759375 they won't want me to do it
681.759375 683.999375 because this is a different tradition than me
683.999375 686.199375 and I wanna be respectful,
686.199375 688.879375 which probably maybe was the right choice,
688.879375 689.879375 but then at the same time,
689.879375 691.399375 I'm like, but I know my Jesus.
691.399375 693.039375 And my Jesus wants me to do this
693.039375 695.759375 and remember and so I'm sitting there
695.759375 698.559375 in the back of the service spinning out in my head
698.559375 699.919375 for who knows how long,
699.919375 701.479375 certainly not focusing on the Lord.
701.479375 702.839375 And then I just got up with my son
702.839375 704.519375 and said we're gonna leave.
704.519375 708.799375 I mean, yeah, so there you go.
708.799375 711.199375 So did that prevent me from having closeness
711.199375 712.519375 to the Lord at that time?
712.519375 714.319375 Heck yeah, it did.
714.319375 717.839375 And I went out feeling not enough
717.839375 720.759375 or like I was totally out of my element
720.759375 722.599375 that I wasn't welcome in that culture.
722.599375 727.599375 Like all these things when we served the same God,
727.599375 730.399375 we were celebrating the death and resurrection
730.399375 733.799375 of Jesus Christ together as believers,
734.519375 735.359375 why?
735.359375 740.479375 Why did I leave feeling that I didn't measure up?
740.479375 741.639375 I mean,
741.639375 744.239375 and I've experienced the flip side of that
744.239375 747.559375 where I've been in churches where I feel like
747.559375 749.479375 they don't fence the table
749.479375 752.519375 and they just tell everyone to come to the table
752.519375 756.199375 and that has bothered me and distracted me
756.199375 757.639375 from what's happening because I'm like, no,
757.639375 760.439375 like scripture says don't eat
760.439375 761.879375 and drink judgment on yourself.
761.879375 762.719375 Yeah.
762.719375 764.679375 So I've gotten hung up on,
764.679375 766.759375 they're not giving enough qualification
766.759375 768.319375 for who should come to the table.
768.319375 769.999375 So it can happen both ways.
769.999375 772.119375 Yeah, and just while we're on this topic,
772.119375 774.679375 we spoke in our episode last time,
774.679375 777.839375 our couple episodes ago, we talked about sacrifices
777.839375 780.119375 and we had mentioned the Lord's Supper
780.119375 782.039375 and the different traditions
782.039375 785.839375 and how in the churches of origin that you and I grew up in,
785.839375 789.439375 our pastors would invite the congregation
789.439375 793.879375 to reconcile before partaking of the Lord's Supper.
793.879375 796.999375 And so it was done as something
796.999375 801.999375 that was a serious thought exercise in your relationship,
801.999375 807.559375 not only with the Lord, but also with other people.
807.559375 809.879375 And I think I mentioned our church did it,
809.879375 812.119375 you know, maybe four to six times a year,
812.119375 814.199375 I'm not sure how often your church did it,
814.199375 817.119375 but I think sometimes when we take,
817.119375 822.119375 when we have communion so often every week,
822.119375 826.319375 while it is still meaningful and is still important,
826.319375 829.679375 sometimes it can lose some of that significance for us.
829.679375 833.959375 And so there's a lot of ways that that sacrament,
833.959375 836.039375 that that command, I mean, we're told to do it.
836.039375 838.199375 It is not an option, we have to.
838.199375 841.439375 But like how, when do you dip,
841.439375 843.839375 do you have the separate little bread and juice?
843.839375 845.239375 Do you, you know?
845.239375 846.839375 Do you have wine or do you just use grape juice?
846.839375 849.719375 - Right, exactly, like there's so many things
849.719375 854.039375 and we can get caught up on all of these things
854.039375 856.799375 and miss the entire point, which is,
856.799375 858.479375 do this in remembrance of me.
858.479375 859.319375 - Right.
859.319375 862.319375 Well, and I think that goes to the point
862.319375 867.999375 of why it's important to us to talk about these traditions
867.999375 871.959375 on this episode, the big picture being,
871.959375 876.559375 what we really need to focus on is what scripture says.
876.559375 877.559375 - Correct.
877.559375 881.239375 And all the things that we add to scripture,
881.239375 885.439375 I mean, there are good traditions in church,
885.439375 887.639375 they're good things that help us know the Lord.
887.639375 889.559375 But just like you're saying,
889.559375 891.479375 there's not a prescribed frequency
891.479375 894.119375 of the Lord's supper in scripture.
894.119375 895.599375 Nowhere in the Bible does it say,
895.599375 896.759375 you have to do communion weekly,
896.759375 898.799375 or you have to do communion annually,
898.799375 900.039375 or you have to do communion monthly.
900.039375 903.279375 Like there's no specifics there.
903.279375 908.279375 And God has left a lot up to us to just work out our salvation,
908.279375 909.799375 with fear and trembling, right?
909.799375 912.839375 And to make it kind of our own thing.
912.839375 914.399375 And so I think that I was saying to Sarah
914.399375 917.679375 before we start recording, a lot of things like this,
917.679375 922.999375 the main thing that has caused me to step back
922.999375 927.159375 and reevaluate and consider what am I holding onto to tightly
927.159375 930.719375 has only happened when I've changed churches
930.719375 933.199375 or been at a different church for a period of time.
933.199375 936.879375 It kind of shakes loose all those things you are used to.
936.879375 939.359375 And you start to realize what you miss,
939.359375 942.119375 what you don't miss, why did I care about this?
942.119375 944.839375 Why should I even care about this?
944.839375 947.319375 What are those things that are essentials
947.319375 949.039375 and what are those things that are just traditions
949.039375 950.839375 that we're adding on?
950.839375 952.839375 - Yeah, being raised Mennonite,
952.839375 955.439375 we are in the anabaptist tradition.
955.439375 958.799375 So it is definitely a believer's baptism.
958.799375 962.479375 And that was something that was important to me growing up.
962.479375 967.479375 And I was encouraged to be baptized for quite a few years
967.479375 969.239375 but I wasn't ready.
969.239375 971.919375 And it was something that I had to come to on my own
971.919375 975.359375 where I felt that I was not ashamed of the gospel
975.359375 977.759375 that I was ready to stand up for my faith
977.759375 981.119375 and carry that with me everywhere in school,
981.119375 983.239375 at home with my friends.
983.239375 985.639375 But there was a time before I did the baptism,
985.639375 987.359375 which in some British traditions
987.359375 989.839375 is considered a sacrament in the midnight tradition.
989.839375 991.559375 It's more of a symbol of faith.
991.559375 996.559375 But I knew that I wasn't ready to boldly take the stand
996.559375 1000.959375 in my school, like that was my biggest thing, I think.
1000.959375 1002.799375 And so finally I got to a point where I was like,
1002.799375 1003.759375 I am ready.
1003.759375 1007.679375 I'm ready to be this person to proclaim the death
1007.679375 1011.559375 and resurrection of Christ in my own body wherever I go.
1011.559375 1015.479375 And so that's when I chose to be baptized.
1015.479375 1017.879375 And it was super meaningful.
1017.879375 1019.359375 And maybe I've shared this before,
1019.359375 1024.199375 but I chose to be dunked in a pond and on a property
1024.199375 1025.799375 that I pretty much grew up on.
1025.799375 1029.399375 The farm was owned by sort of my surrogate grandparents.
1029.399375 1032.479375 And then my father as an elder of the church at the time
1032.479375 1034.359375 and our pastor baptized me.
1034.359375 1038.119375 And it was one of the most meaningful experiences for me,
1038.119375 1041.439375 not only because it was my personal declaration
1041.439375 1043.359375 that I was ready to stand up for Christ,
1043.359375 1047.919375 but also because of the amazing tradition
1047.919375 1052.919375 relationally and familial tradition
1052.919375 1055.559375 that was in that place, if that makes sense.
1055.559375 1058.039375 So again, look at that.
1058.039375 1061.439375 I was pulling tradition back into my baptism experience.
1061.439375 1066.439375 But in this particular case, it elevated this tradition
1066.439375 1066.959375 for me.
1066.959375 1070.759375 And so that's kind of the heart of what we're getting at here.
1070.759375 1075.279375 Each of us has a personal relationship with Jesus,
1075.279375 1077.599375 with God, with the Holy Spirit.
1077.599375 1082.159375 And we need to be aware of the things
1082.159375 1084.319375 that we bring into our relationship.
1084.319375 1087.799375 Are they putting up a veil?
1087.799375 1090.359375 Are we replacing that veil that was torn?
1090.359375 1092.639375 Are we putting up a rude screen?
1092.639375 1097.879375 OK, there we go, listen, I'll spend all day in medieval
1097.879375 1100.719375 and beautiful cathedrals around the world
1100.719375 1103.759375 and admire the intricacies of the rude screens.
1103.759375 1106.519375 But are those carved wooden panels
1106.519375 1110.079375 keeping us from a relationship with Jesus is the question?
1110.079375 1112.719375 So I think I've talked to myself out on that topic.
1112.719375 1115.879375 Yeah, it brings to mind Matthew 15,
1115.879375 1119.799375 where I think it's the Pharisees are challenging Jesus.
1119.799375 1121.879375 And they say, why do your disciples break the tradition
1121.879375 1122.559375 of the elders?
1122.559375 1124.359375 They don't wash their hands before they eat.
1124.359375 1127.679375 And Jesus replied, and why do you break the command of God
1127.679375 1130.799375 for the sake of your tradition?
1130.799375 1133.559375 And so just that challenge of tradition
1133.559375 1135.279375 is mentioned a ton in Scripture.
1135.279375 1138.279375 The Israelites had so many traditions and feasts
1138.279375 1139.039375 and all these things.
1139.039375 1143.359375 So Jesus is not condemning all tradition.
1143.359375 1147.079375 He's saying, what's most important for the commands of God?
1147.079375 1150.599375 And if you're breaking the command of God
1150.599375 1153.319375 for the sake of your tradition, you
1153.319375 1156.119375 need to re-evaluate what you're doing, right?
1156.119375 1162.159375 I mean, just to touch on your baptism comment,
1162.159375 1166.199375 some people might think that I am a heretic
1166.199375 1168.599375 because I have been sprinkled and dunked.
1168.599375 1171.439375 So I do believe there's only one baptism
1171.439375 1172.919375 for the remission of sins.
1172.919375 1174.759375 But when I was a baby, my parents were
1174.759375 1175.599375 in a Presbyterian church.
1175.599375 1177.479375 And then when I was in early elementary school,
1177.479375 1180.879375 we were in a Baptist church, which only did baptism
1180.879375 1181.959375 as a profession of faith.
1181.959375 1187.199375 And you'd walk the aisle to just as I am, and the whole thing.
1187.199375 1190.159375 And so I have both in my background.
1190.159375 1196.559375 And I think there is room for interpretation
1196.559375 1199.079375 about what baptism can and should look like.
1199.079375 1202.279375 There are certain things about it that are essential.
1202.279375 1204.079375 And there's certain things about it that are not.
1204.079375 1207.119375 And so it's a great example of, are we holding
1207.119375 1211.879375 too tightly to the tradition instead of honoring it
1211.879375 1213.679375 for what the purpose behind it?
1213.679375 1214.839375 Yeah, funny.
1214.839375 1215.679375 You should bring that up.
1215.679375 1217.399375 I briefly lived in the South.
1217.399375 1219.639375 And when I moved there, there were no Mennonite
1219.639375 1220.479375 churches.
1220.479375 1222.319375 So I attended a Presbyterian church,
1222.319375 1224.799375 being that both my parents were raised in that tradition.
1224.799375 1226.559375 And my grandfather was a minister.
1226.559375 1228.679375 But the point was, is that remember the first time
1228.679375 1232.239375 we had an infant baptism, I was raised to believe
1232.239375 1233.879375 that that was just wrong.
1233.879375 1236.279375 And so I'm sitting there, and I'm experiencing this.
1236.279375 1240.239375 And I'm like, oh my goodness, it makes so much sense.
1240.239375 1243.319375 Just the scriptures, the way that the parents approach it,
1243.319375 1245.599375 the way that pastor approaches it like, I get it.
1245.599375 1247.799375 So I don't, okay.
1247.799375 1248.799375 I'm not going to--
1248.799375 1250.319375 We're not going to make the whole episode about baptism.
1250.319375 1252.879375 We're not making the episode about baptism.
1252.879375 1255.119375 All of my Mennonite friends that are listening,
1255.119375 1257.959375 all of my Presbyterian friends, my Catholic friends,
1257.959375 1259.999375 my friends that have no faith, whatever.
1259.999375 1262.679375 We're just presenting our own lived experiences,
1262.679375 1266.519375 and we're not going to come out and say, which is what.
1266.519375 1268.479375 But there's other things, Mary Beth,
1268.479375 1273.119375 that can really become points of contention
1273.119375 1277.199375 and cause people to leave churches,
1277.199375 1281.639375 to sever relationships, which, by the way,
1281.639375 1288.399375 we just want to say, you, as a believer,
1288.399375 1291.799375 must live in community with other Christians.
1291.799375 1293.079375 You have to.
1293.079375 1295.359375 So if you've been hurt by the church,
1295.359375 1297.879375 if you've been wounded by the church,
1297.879375 1299.919375 that breaks my heart.
1299.919375 1306.359375 The church is people, people are sinful, people hurt other people.
1306.359375 1308.399375 But there is a place for you.
1308.399375 1310.599375 There is a community for you.
1310.599375 1314.079375 Do not lose heart.
1314.079375 1316.799375 God wants you to keep looking for your community,
1316.799375 1318.119375 for your Christian community.
1318.119375 1319.039375 So--
1319.039375 1324.519375 Well, and for those who are believers and are in churches,
1324.519375 1329.959375 with which they might be frustrated or not
1329.959375 1335.039375 be totally on board with, go back to Scripture.
1335.039375 1338.999375 Is it things that are foundational and essential
1338.999375 1341.559375 to the truth of who God is that you have a problem with?
1341.559375 1343.519375 Or is it something else?
1343.519375 1344.759375 There's no perfect church.
1344.759375 1345.759375 Right.
1345.759375 1347.519375 There are sort of a burst of bubble.
1347.519375 1350.839375 And the church around you isn't going to get better
1350.839375 1353.719375 if people aren't willing to try to get better.
1353.719375 1354.679375 Correct.
1354.679375 1355.959375 Right.
1355.959375 1358.399375 Being that the church is made up of people,
1358.399375 1363.479375 people are the ones that need to keep it on the right path.
1363.479375 1368.879375 I think back to one of the other sort of traditions
1368.879375 1375.319375 in the church where I grew up, it was this idea of greeting
1375.319375 1376.479375 people.
1376.479375 1378.719375 And there was a holy kiss.
1378.719375 1381.519375 This is talked about in Scriptures.
1381.519375 1384.119375 People have different ideas of what that might be
1384.119375 1385.799375 in different traditions.
1385.799375 1388.639375 But I remember-- and this is something
1388.639375 1392.319375 I think that is a tradition that actually enhanced my faith.
1392.319375 1396.239375 I'll say was this idea of greeting one another.
1396.239375 1401.519375 And so I can remember like a few decades ago.
1401.519375 1404.999375 When we would come into church, like the pastor who was kind
1404.999375 1408.279375 of like my surrogate grandfather, I remember he would always
1408.279375 1411.039375 kiss my dad on the cheek with the holy kiss.
1411.039375 1412.919375 Of course, their relationship was really
1412.919375 1414.599375 a father-son type relationship.
1414.599375 1416.559375 So I don't know if he did that for everybody or not,
1416.559375 1417.919375 but I just remember that.
1417.919375 1421.439375 And as a small child, I was like, that must be the holy kiss,
1421.439375 1423.359375 you know?
1423.359375 1429.839375 But the warm welcome and the intentional clasping of hands
1429.839375 1433.599375 and direct eye contact and maybe a hug
1433.599375 1439.239375 is such a part of that tradition that I grew up in
1439.239375 1445.079375 that more of a reserved warm handshake.
1445.079375 1447.719375 This isn't as welcoming to me just
1447.719375 1451.399375 because when I was a child, the greetings
1451.399375 1453.239375 were effusive, I guess.
1453.239375 1457.879375 You're not over the top, but just really that genuine love.
1457.879375 1460.519375 And even when I go back to the Mennonite church
1460.519375 1462.559375 where my dad is currently a pastor,
1462.559375 1464.039375 and these are people that I've, you know,
1464.039375 1465.839375 some of them known me my whole life.
1465.839375 1470.359375 But there's just a joy and lots of hugs and tears
1470.359375 1474.679375 and handshakes and all the things.
1474.679375 1478.359375 But see, I think that is an example of how traditions
1478.359375 1480.319375 are helpful to us, right?
1480.319375 1482.519375 That is drawing you into community and bringing you closer
1482.519375 1483.799375 to the Lord.
1483.799375 1486.359375 And I mean, I love that we're talking about this topic
1486.359375 1490.119375 because I do err on the side of tradition.
1490.119375 1493.439375 And our church is a non-denominational church.
1493.439375 1496.639375 And it is hard for me sometimes to be there with a lack
1496.639375 1501.399375 of seemingly, in my mind, structure and tradition.
1501.399375 1505.439375 And so sometimes those things are good.
1505.439375 1508.759375 And they're there for a reason to help point us to Christ.
1508.759375 1513.079375 There's a lot of things where it's the action of doing it
1513.079375 1515.199375 helps center your heart, right?
1515.199375 1518.639375 So I grew up, we would recite the Apostles Creed
1518.639375 1520.519375 every Sunday in church.
1520.519375 1524.279375 And it became so ingrained in my subconscious
1524.279375 1527.959375 that I can still recite it to this day without looking.
1527.959375 1532.999375 And some weeks was it empty and rote, yes.
1532.999375 1537.639375 But also it was a long-term work of the Lord
1537.639375 1541.759375 growing that truth into who I am.
1541.759375 1543.239375 And the same with the Lord's Prayer.
1543.239375 1544.719375 We say the Lord's Prayer every Sunday.
1544.719375 1548.279375 And that's where there's that kind of push and pull
1548.279375 1552.719375 of we're not saying all traditions are bad.
1552.719375 1555.279375 And we're not saying all traditions
1555.279375 1557.639375 are going to make you feel a certain way
1557.639375 1561.479375 because we know that our faith is not based on feelings.
1561.479375 1566.519375 So how do we navigate what's good and what's not?
1566.519375 1568.719375 When are we doing traditions in a good way?
1568.719375 1569.719375 When are we not?
1569.719375 1571.119375 When are we holding on too much to the human tradition?
1571.119375 1574.239375 So how can we assess that, Sarah?
1574.239375 1577.599375 Well, that's a great question that you raised, Mary Beth.
1577.599375 1580.159375 I expect you to have all the answers.
1580.159375 1585.399375 For my answer, I am going to point us right back to scripture.
1585.399375 1587.519375 There are many, many verses in the Bible
1587.519375 1592.319375 that speak of the word of God and the laws of God
1592.319375 1597.679375 and the precepts of God being the thing that we meditate on
1597.679375 1600.639375 that we spend our time thinking about.
1600.639375 1603.239375 I just think back to even Joshua
1603.239375 1606.279375 when Moses was commanding him
1606.279375 1609.679375 and sort of passing the mantle, so to speak.
1609.679375 1612.999375 And they said to the people, you know, meditate on the law.
1612.999375 1616.479375 This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth,
1616.479375 1620.759375 but you shall meditate on it day and night
1620.759375 1624.519375 so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it.
1624.519375 1627.079375 For then you will make your way prosperous
1627.079375 1630.559375 and then you will have good success.
1630.559375 1633.399375 And in Psalm 19, David says,
1633.399375 1635.199375 "The decrees of the Lord are firm
1635.199375 1636.559375 and all of them are righteous.
1636.559375 1639.679375 They're more precious than gold than much pure gold.
1639.679375 1643.439375 They're sweeter than honey than honey from the honeycomb."
1643.439375 1646.839375 And the truth of the scripture
1646.839375 1652.559375 is what needs to inform our traditions.
1652.559375 1655.319375 And when I say our traditions, I mean collectively,
1655.319375 1658.959375 but also individually, there are some things
1658.959375 1660.959375 because of our personalities
1660.959375 1662.319375 or the way we were raised
1662.319375 1665.599375 or experiences that we've had in life or whatever.
1665.599375 1668.559375 There are some things that are not going to bring
1668.559375 1670.679375 a particular person closer to God.
1670.679375 1673.559375 There are people that would not want to be greeted with a hug
1673.559375 1677.639375 or a kiss or an effusive handshake, whatever.
1677.639375 1679.119375 They would feel very uncomfortable
1679.119375 1680.919375 and might choose not to come back.
1680.919375 1686.399375 And I would never want to prevent someone from coming back to church
1686.399375 1689.039375 and having a relationship with Jesus.
1689.039375 1691.959375 You mentioned the creeds.
1691.959375 1695.399375 I did not grow up memorizing or repeating that.
1695.399375 1697.959375 I mean, I heard the apostles' creed, of course,
1697.959375 1699.399375 but in the Mennonite church,
1699.399375 1702.479375 it was pretty much a straight scripture for everything.
1702.479375 1706.479375 There wasn't really anything extra that we memorized
1706.479375 1709.159375 as a young adult when I,
1709.159375 1711.519375 well, I love the creeds.
1711.519375 1714.079375 But when I came to really know the apostles' creed,
1714.079375 1717.279375 I was like, wow, that's powerful.
1717.279375 1720.319375 And so that's something that I have sort of integrated
1720.319375 1723.919375 into my adult life that just reminds me
1723.919375 1726.119375 and gives me encouragement.
1726.119375 1731.359375 And I take so much, what's the word I'm looking for.
1731.359375 1735.519375 I take so much, I guess, encouragement, but it's deeper than that.
1735.519375 1740.439375 Sort of like this deep rootedness and groundedness
1740.439375 1744.439375 in tradition that stretches back for centuries.
1744.439375 1749.559375 All of this tradition that informs my personal relationship
1749.559375 1752.199375 with God now and who I am.
1752.199375 1755.679375 When you think about the apostles' creed, for example,
1755.679375 1758.479375 that has been recited for years.
1758.479375 1763.079375 And I love the fact that I'm saying the same words
1763.079375 1768.039375 that someone who had a relationship with the same Jesus
1768.039375 1770.239375 a thousand years ago.
1770.239375 1775.719375 And just the truth of that permeating my mind and my heart.
1775.719375 1778.359375 And we've talked before about words and how they matter
1778.359375 1781.719375 and the things that you say really do affect what you do
1781.719375 1784.279375 and how you think and what you become.
1784.279375 1785.959375 That's something that I would have to say
1785.959375 1789.959375 that as a tradition for me, that has become a beautiful
1789.959375 1793.839375 and cherished tradition, the creeds, maybe catechism.
1793.839375 1796.319375 We didn't have catechism when I was growing up.
1796.319375 1806.039375 Well, and there is, I would argue, a need for theology.
1806.039375 1810.759375 Once you are growing in your faith and, you know,
1810.759375 1813.439375 this is not essential to salvation.
1813.439375 1816.479375 But once you are walking with Jesus,
1816.479375 1820.039375 there is a depth of understanding and a framework
1820.039375 1826.039375 that I think is important to enrich and grow that relationship
1826.039375 1827.719375 and how you view the world.
1827.719375 1830.199375 And so things like catechism and creeds help set up
1830.199375 1834.279375 that framework for theology, what you believe about God.
1834.279375 1837.639375 And all of it being rooted in Scripture.
1837.639375 1841.239375 And so like you're saying, it's a way to connect back
1841.239375 1844.839375 to Christians from centuries ago who are affirming the same truth.
1844.839375 1846.839375 .
1846.839375 1850.239375 But again, you just have to be wise about it, right?
1850.239375 1854.759375 Are we starting from a place of Scripture?
1854.759375 1858.479375 And are we letting others do the work for us?
1858.479375 1861.519375 Or are we going to Scripture ourselves?
1861.519375 1863.839375 I think there's another important distinction.
1863.839375 1867.239375 There can be a tendency to just, well, this is whatever
1867.239375 1868.759375 this church that I'm going to is saying.
1868.759375 1870.999375 So I'm just going to go along with it.
1870.999375 1873.479375 What about your study of the word?
1873.479375 1876.359375 One thing that Mary Beth and I often think about
1876.359375 1878.959375 as we prepare these podcasts is,
1878.959375 1884.159375 are we saying things on our own authority?
1884.159375 1886.679375 Are we saying things on the authority of Scripture?
1886.679375 1889.639375 And obviously, we do have lighthearted conversations
1889.639375 1894.359375 and we let our mind wander and talk about very interesting topics.
1894.359375 1896.159375 And sometimes those don't have anything
1896.159375 1897.799375 to do with the Word of God.
1897.799375 1898.839375 And that's fine.
1898.839375 1904.279375 But are we making sure that our absolute truth
1904.279375 1906.439375 and the words that are coming from our mouth
1906.439375 1907.959375 are from the Scripture?
1907.959375 1910.799375 And so I think it's an interesting thing to think about
1910.799375 1913.879375 because we want you listeners of course
1913.879375 1915.599375 to listen to our podcast, right?
1915.599375 1916.759375 I think that's like we're making it.
1916.759375 1918.279375 We want people to listen to it.
1918.279375 1921.199375 We also want you to be reading the Bible, too, for yourself.
1921.199375 1925.319375 And so please take this as augmentation
1925.319375 1928.319375 for your own study and your own relationship
1928.319375 1931.079375 with the Lord, something to encourage you.
1931.079375 1936.159375 But spend that time on your own or in a group
1936.159375 1939.279375 you're reading God's Word and really grasping,
1939.279375 1942.399375 taking a hold of it for yourself.
1942.399375 1945.239375 Just not a tradition that's handed down to you
1945.239375 1950.639375 from someone else, but that you take for your own.
1950.639375 1953.759375 If we look at what Scripture does say
1953.759375 1955.319375 about these things we're talking about,
1955.319375 1960.199375 we've talked about the importance of actually meditating
1960.199375 1962.199375 in the Word of the Lord.
1962.199375 1967.439375 There are also some words of caution in Scripture for us.
1967.439375 1969.799375 Yes, especially in the New Testament letters
1969.799375 1975.399375 to the young churches or humans just like us.
1975.399375 1984.399375 And I think of John 17 this warning about how we are not
1984.399375 1986.079375 of the world.
1986.079375 1987.559375 Jesus was praying in this prayer.
1987.559375 1989.999375 He says, my prayer is not that you take them out of the world,
1989.999375 1992.399375 but that you protect them from the evil one.
1992.399375 1995.599375 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
1995.599375 1997.239375 Sanctify them by the truth.
1997.239375 1998.999375 Your Word is truth.
1998.999375 2002.319375 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
2002.319375 2007.439375 For them, I sanctify myself that they too may be truly sanctified.
2007.439375 2012.639375 This is Jesus's prayer for his disciples and the church to come.
2012.639375 2015.479375 And again, he's even pointing in that prayer back
2015.479375 2017.879375 to your Word is truth.
2017.879375 2019.839375 We are in the world.
2019.839375 2021.999375 We are not supposed to be of it.
2021.999375 2023.319375 I know if you've been around Christianity,
2023.319375 2026.279375 probably heard that phrase, be in the world, but not of it.
2026.279375 2029.799375 And that's where this comes from.
2029.799375 2035.239375 And accepting a watered down faith or Christianity light
2035.239375 2041.599375 or listening to Christian teaching that only focuses
2041.599375 2044.359375 on the topics that you want to hear
2044.359375 2048.119375 because they make you happy and they don't make you feel uncomfortable,
2048.119375 2049.839375 that's not the whole gospel.
2049.839375 2053.519375 It's not the whole story.
2053.519375 2058.639375 Bible is a story and it's important to understand all the parts of it.
2058.639375 2061.079375 And so that's a good gut check.
2061.079375 2065.519375 Have you heard teaching recently from the Old Testament,
2065.519375 2068.879375 the New Testament, some hard things?
2068.879375 2073.999375 Have you dived into those stories that maybe
2073.999375 2078.999375 or not as polished or as comfortable to read?
2078.999375 2082.159375 Yeah, I think the other word of caution
2082.159375 2085.519375 kind of that comes to my mind.
2085.519375 2088.159375 You know, you mentioned watered down faith.
2088.159375 2091.399375 The Book of James is a great book of exhortation.
2091.399375 2098.159375 And I think in, we talked a little bit about this whole idea
2098.159375 2101.839375 of Christian subculture toward the beginning of the episode.
2101.839375 2104.319375 Sometimes, just like we were saying,
2104.319375 2108.079375 there's pros and cons, lots of traditions.
2108.079375 2113.239375 Sometimes we are so immersed in doing church things.
2113.239375 2117.479375 So many Bible studies or classes or whatever it is.
2117.479375 2120.559375 But we forget, James 1, do not merely listen to the word
2120.559375 2123.559375 and so deceive yourselves, do what it says.
2123.559375 2126.759375 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says
2126.759375 2128.919375 is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror
2128.919375 2130.559375 and after looking at himself goes away
2130.559375 2132.519375 and immediately forgets what he looks like.
2132.519375 2134.679375 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law
2134.679375 2138.559375 that gives freedom and continues in it,
2138.559375 2140.919375 not forgetting what they have heard but doing it,
2140.919375 2143.159375 they will be blessed in what they do.
2143.159375 2147.559375 So I think that's just a good reminder that it's not just
2147.559375 2150.279375 even showing up on Sunday for a sermon
2150.279375 2155.879375 and then walking out the door and it has no impact on your life, right?
2155.879375 2158.999375 Is our study of scripture, is our learning
2158.999375 2161.719375 actually turning into changed action in our lives?
2161.719375 2164.319375 I think that's a good indicator as well.
2164.319375 2167.119375 If we're just doing this out of tradition
2167.119375 2171.399375 versus really setting our hearts on the things of the word.
2171.399375 2176.239375 You mentioned the result of our intention.
2176.239375 2180.239375 Are there actions that we're taking?
2180.239375 2181.959375 Is there fruit in our life?
2181.959375 2183.439375 And we often use that.
2183.439375 2186.039375 Maybe that's Christian ease again.
2186.039375 2191.839375 Maybe let me put that into non-Christian terms maybe.
2191.839375 2202.039375 Are you focusing on positive change that is in God's way?
2202.039375 2203.999375 Are you following His laws?
2203.999375 2209.839375 Are your actions and the results of those intentions
2209.839375 2212.599375 showing up in the way that you're living your life?
2212.599375 2214.999375 Do people around you notice that maybe you're changing
2214.999375 2216.359375 for the better?
2216.359375 2221.119375 Do you find yourself knowing more easily what and what not
2221.119375 2224.519375 to do because your understanding God's law is better?
2224.519375 2226.519375 We would say, are you bearing fruit?
2226.519375 2229.839375 But again, define your terms, right?
2229.839375 2233.519375 So those would be some ways of bearing fruit.
2233.519375 2242.079375 That is also a good way to know if other people who you are
2242.079375 2245.319375 being taught by or you're listening to,
2245.319375 2249.239375 if they also are following God's ways and working
2249.239375 2254.519375 to implement His laws and His desires for them
2254.519375 2255.919375 in their own lives.
2255.919375 2259.479375 And I say that because John speaks of this,
2259.479375 2263.599375 and he says to us, first, John 2--
2263.599375 2265.439375 I think it's starting around verse 20--
2265.439375 2267.719375 but you have been anointed by the Holy One,
2267.719375 2270.359375 and you all have knowledge.
2270.359375 2272.879375 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth,
2272.879375 2277.239375 but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
2277.239375 2278.519375 Who is the liar?
2278.519375 2281.359375 But he who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
2281.359375 2283.119375 This is the anti-Christ.
2283.119375 2285.599375 He who denies the Father and the Son.
2285.599375 2288.399375 No one who denies the Son has the Father.
2288.399375 2291.719375 Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
2291.719375 2294.839375 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you.
2294.839375 2297.239375 And he goes on to say another verse further down,
2297.239375 2300.839375 but the anointing that you received from him abides in you.
2300.839375 2303.599375 And you have no need that anyone should teach you.
2303.599375 2306.599375 But as his anointing teaches you about everything,
2306.599375 2310.159375 and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you
2310.159375 2311.519375 abide in him.
2311.519375 2313.759375 So there was a lot in that passage.
2313.759375 2316.279375 But the two main points that I want to draw out
2316.279375 2319.999375 and tie this together with is this one.
2319.999375 2323.479375 There are people around us that are anti-Christ.
2323.479375 2326.519375 They deny that Jesus is the Christ.
2326.519375 2330.399375 And so if you don't see the fruit of the spirit,
2330.399375 2335.519375 the fruit of working to implement God's laws in their life,
2335.519375 2338.759375 then don't listen to them for Christian teaching,
2338.759375 2340.479375 for spiritual teaching.
2340.479375 2343.559375 Yeah, and just put the caveat in there.
2343.559375 2347.839375 You said this, but I just want to make it super clear
2347.839375 2349.479375 when we say anti-Christ.
2349.479375 2353.599375 We really are saying the core definition of that word,
2353.599375 2357.039375 anyone who is against Christ.
2357.039375 2360.559375 This isn't some one big figure.
2360.559375 2364.999375 We're saying any teaching or any person that is contrary.
2364.999375 2365.519375 Correct.
2365.519375 2367.279375 So like a lowercase anti-Christ.
2367.279375 2368.159375 Yes, OK.
2368.159375 2368.639375 Thank you.
2368.639375 2370.039375 Yes, thank you for--
2370.039375 2371.479375 I didn't want to drop that word in here.
2371.479375 2372.199375 And then--
2372.199375 2374.479375 Right, because we're not talking in revelation right now.
2374.479375 2376.199375 Yeah, OK.
2376.199375 2378.599375 And then the other part of this that I want to mention
2378.599375 2384.999375 is that when we receive the anointing,
2384.999375 2387.839375 this verse says, we have no need that anyone should teach us.
2387.839375 2390.999375 Now there's two parts of that.
2390.999375 2397.679375 One is the word of God and his spirit and his presence
2397.679375 2400.999375 are abiding in us.
2400.999375 2404.679375 That doesn't mean that we don't need spiritual teaching.
2404.679375 2409.719375 What it means is we have the method for discerning,
2409.719375 2413.719375 correct teaching within us.
2413.719375 2416.839375 How do we listen into that?
2416.839375 2420.279375 How do we hone our skill at discernment?
2420.279375 2424.439375 How do we hear the voice of the Holy Spirit?
2424.439375 2430.359375 We can turn up the volume on that by reading his word.
2430.359375 2433.319375 Because the same God that lives inside of each of us
2433.319375 2435.879375 is the same God that wrote these scriptures
2435.879375 2439.959375 is the same God that is working in this world and us
2439.959375 2442.039375 to willing to do it for his good pleasure.
2442.039375 2444.359375 And it's the same God that is coming back
2444.359375 2449.559375 to judge the quick, the dead and take us to heaven.
2449.559375 2452.999375 I'm reminded of what my Bible teacher in middle school
2452.999375 2455.959375 taught us over and over and over, the scripture interprets
2455.959375 2457.359375 scripture.
2457.359375 2460.119375 So anytime you're considering a passage
2460.119375 2463.719375 like the one Sarah just shared, but you're like me
2463.719375 2465.479375 and you're like, but I need something practical.
2465.479375 2466.279375 What does that mean?
2466.279375 2467.799375 What does that look like?
2467.799375 2470.199375 Well, let's go to other scripture and see what it means.
2470.199375 2470.919375 It looks like.
2470.919375 2473.719375 It's good because I feel like that was a long,
2473.719375 2475.879375 that someone can be a little confusing
2475.879375 2477.159375 what we were just talking about.
2477.159375 2479.159375 But it's important and it's true.
2479.159375 2482.679375 And so if we like, I just go back to James.
2482.679375 2485.159375 We're like, okay, so if all those things are true,
2485.159375 2488.039375 if we have the anointing, the wisdom,
2488.039375 2491.799375 the spirit is teaching us, but I still don't know
2491.799375 2492.839375 what it's just to look like.
2492.839375 2496.519375 Well, James 1:27, religion that God, our Father,
2496.519375 2498.919375 accepts as pure and faultless as this,
2498.919375 2501.319375 to look after orphans and widows in their distress
2501.319375 2505.079375 and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
2505.079375 2506.759375 I think if we all started there,
2506.759375 2508.519375 we'd be in pretty good shape.
2508.519375 2510.519375 That's a religious tradition I can get behind.
2510.519375 2511.399375 Yeah.
2511.399375 2513.159375 Yeah.
2513.159375 2516.199375 Well, listeners, this conversation today,
2516.199375 2518.999375 maybe has raised more questions in your mind
2518.999375 2522.759375 than you've received answers from good.
2522.759375 2524.119375 Good.
2524.119375 2527.639375 Go right to your Bible and look for those answers.
2527.639375 2528.119375 Yeah.
2528.119375 2531.959375 I know that I have certainly been thinking about
2531.959375 2535.159375 a lot of other topics and questions
2535.159375 2537.559375 as we've been having this discussion, Mary Beth.
2537.559375 2541.719375 Well, it's good for God to stir these things up in our heart.
2541.719375 2543.079375 As I've mentioned throughout,
2543.079375 2545.079375 giving these examples in this episode,
2545.079375 2547.079375 this is something that I struggle with
2547.079375 2549.239375 because I do hold on to tradition
2549.239375 2550.839375 and I miss it when it's not there.
2550.839375 2554.919375 And I will say, God is a God of order.
2554.919375 2557.159375 And we see in the New Testament some of Paul's letters,
2557.159375 2560.199375 these new churches were struggling to figure it out.
2560.199375 2562.679375 And there were times where Paul needed to come in and say,
2562.679375 2566.439375 "Hey, you need to put some order into place."
2566.439375 2568.679375 So we're not throwing out the baby with the bath water.
2568.679375 2569.479375 No, we're not.
2569.479375 2571.319375 Okay, so really this just reminds me
2571.319375 2572.759375 in the very beginning of the church,
2572.759375 2576.119375 there was a lot of questions about what things we should do,
2576.119375 2577.399375 what things we shouldn't do.
2577.399375 2580.519375 Should Gentiles that became Christians be circumcised?
2580.519375 2586.599375 Yeah, in Acts 15, this was a big discussion.
2586.599375 2590.359375 They actually had a council about it at Jerusalem.
2590.359375 2591.719375 This is in the early church days.
2591.719375 2595.079375 The apostles and elders met to consider
2595.079375 2596.439375 if the Gentiles must be circumcised.
2596.439375 2597.639375 And after much discussion,
2597.639375 2600.359375 this is verse seven of Acts 15.
2600.359375 2601.719375 Peter got up and addressed them.
2601.719375 2603.399375 Brothers, you know that some time ago,
2603.399375 2604.999375 God made a choice among you.
2604.999375 2606.999375 That the Gentiles might hear from my lips
2606.999375 2608.519375 the message of the gospel and believe.
2608.519375 2612.359375 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them
2612.359375 2614.759375 by giving the Holy Spirit to them just as he did to us.
2614.759375 2617.799375 He did not discriminate between us and them
2617.799375 2619.799375 before he purified their hearts by faith.
2619.799375 2623.159375 Now then, why do you try to test God
2623.159375 2625.559375 by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke
2625.559375 2628.759375 that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
2628.759375 2632.519375 No, we believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus
2632.519375 2634.439375 that we are saved just as they are.
2634.439375 2636.439375 I love this next verse.
2636.439375 2638.839375 The whole assembly became silent
2638.839375 2640.519375 as they listened to Barnabas and Paul
2640.519375 2642.039375 telling about the signs and wonders
2642.039375 2643.879375 God had done among the Gentiles through them.
2643.879375 2648.359375 Wow, that's a great verse to end on
2648.359375 2651.879375 because it speaks really to this entire
2651.879375 2653.239375 discussion and conversation.
2653.239375 2655.879375 Jesus died for everyone.
2657.239375 2661.319375 And let's not put yokes on the necks of new believers
2661.319375 2663.159375 that we cannot bear ourselves.
2663.159375 2666.839375 Well, from Peter's mouth to your ears, listeners.
2666.839375 2669.559375 All right, thanks for joining us.
2669.559375 2671.159375 Yes, thanks so much for joining us.
2671.159375 2675.079375 Until next time, I'm Mary Beth.
2675.079375 2680.199375 And I'm Sarah and this is Trustworthy.