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This is Trustworthy.

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Hi, I'm Sarah.

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And I'm Mary Beth.

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Join us for Conversations in Community,

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established by a trustworthy God.

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On today's episode, Mary Beth and I talk with Tom and Chane Hart,

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serving with Reformed University Fellowship at Furman University

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in Greenville, South Carolina.

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Tom and Chane graciously took time out of their very busy schedules

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to talk with us via Zoom.

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Well, hello there, Tom and Chane Hart.

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Hi, Sarah. Hey, y'all.

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Hey, and we have Mary Beth here too.

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As always, I'm here too, but it's more exciting today that Tom and Chane are here.

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Well, and let's be fair.

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Tom and Chane are here because of you, Mary Beth.

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Yeah.

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Do you want me to explain what's happening?

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Yes.

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I want you to tell me and our listeners, first of all,

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how do you know them?

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And second of all, why are they here?

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Okay, I'll start.

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Tom, I'm interested to hear your side of this,

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to see what you remember about this.

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So 20 years ago, I came back from studying abroad in college

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and my three roommates in my absence had befriended all these fraternity boys that we affectionately

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called the Beta Boys and Tom was one of them. And so my last few months of college we overlapped.

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I think Tom was, I don't know if you were a sophomore, I think you're a couple years behind me.

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So we overlapped and we also all did a college campus ministry called RUF, Reformed University

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fellowship, which is a Presbyterian college campus ministry that was very instrumental in my college experience,

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and Tom's as well, and then Tom and Chane's whole life since then. Yeah, so we became friends that

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last semester, my last semester of college, and then I didn't meet Chane until after that,

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because I think y'all didn't start dating until after that. But we've had the privilege of

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staying in touch and keeping up with what they're doing and their ministry, Tom,

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as a as a campus minister with RUF now. But that's the short version. And we had a lot of fun

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palling around in Athens, Georgia. What year did you graduate Mary Beth? Oh, five.

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So spring of Oh, five was when we first met. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all so fuzzy. It's,

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I was brought to RUF against my will by the beta boys who were grabbing everyone they could and

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bringing them to hear the gospel and I didn't know Jesus when I first went and in my mind,

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in my memory, which I do not trust, as soon as I showed up at RUF, you were there and you greeted

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me. So I don't know. I think the first time I went was probably 2003. What? Because I

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Freshman year was 2003 and I went a few times in the fall, but then I really got involved in the spring of 2004.

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So yeah, I would have been there.

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Okay, my bad Tom.

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Uh, I mean, that was an insignificant part of RUF, you know, it all blurs together.

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God was just wooing you in at that point.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, so our history goes way back.

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And then why I wanted to talk to them today,

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initially I thought of y'all because we've been doing

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a few episodes about community and the next generation

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and kind of thinking about college students.

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But then when I was talking to Chane,

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there's actually a different topic

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that God has kind of brought to both of our minds

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that I think is worthwhile that we'll get into.

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But just talking about in light of community,

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What is real community and what are the foundational building blocks of that?

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And how can that shape all these other areas of life?

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So that's why they're here, Sarah.

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I think they're also here just cause they're nice and they agreed to do it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Anything for you, Mary Beth.

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I'm interested to know.

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So I know how Tom and Mary Beth met, but Chane, how did you come into the picture?

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So Tom and I had a history class together my or our spring for what was it spring of senior year and so none of our college experience overlapped. We had zero mutual friends met in a history class and started dating and I just kind of...Tom's friends adopted me and we spent our whole almost year first year of dating going to different

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weddings because we had separate friends and so we were wedding dating.

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And I think that's where I first met you Chane

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Was at somebody's wedding.

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Yup.

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Somebody's wedding.

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We went to like 16 weddings our first year of dating.

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Oh my goodness.

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That has to be a record.

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I mean, it was a lot.

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I stayed with people I'd never met before.

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A lot of times I was the odd new girl.

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but was just welcomed in this community.

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And I mean, everybody loved Tom,

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so they had to take me too.

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- And it was wild.

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And I tell my college students this,

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we met, the first conversation we had

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was in April of our senior year.

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And which is pretty late in the game

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to be meeting a special someone.

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And but we went on a date on Good Friday

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of 2007 and Chane graduated in May.

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I didn't graduate 'cause I do everything late.

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And so we lived apart for a whole dating relationship.

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And that's why we were wedding dating

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because that was the only way to see each other.

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And it was wild.

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- And I just wanna clarify,

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this is at the University of Georgia.

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- Go dogs.

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- That's right, go dogs.

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I will, I was going to say, Sarah, I've pretty much lost my Southern accent,

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Tom and Chane, but it might come back out on this episode from talking with

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y'all.

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Come on.

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Come on.

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Let it out.

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It comes out when I talk to my mama.

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So yeah.

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Well, I've already been told by Mary Beth that anyone can and should say y'all.

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So I occasionally say y'all, Hey, I lived in the South for a year and a half.

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I married a Southern gentleman.

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I'm allowed to say it.

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You all, I mean, let's just make it easy.

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Yeah, you all.

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So you all have had this connection for a lot of years,

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and I was surprised to learn right

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before we started this recording that you all have not

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seen each other for over a decade, it sounds like.

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Yeah, that's kind of sad.

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So how have you maintained this relationship?

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I mean, speaking of community, when someone reaches out and says, "Oh, can you be on my

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podcast on this topic?"

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And the instant answer is yes.

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I mean, how have you stayed in touch?

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How have you kept that community going between the three of you for this last decade or more?

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Yeah, maybe y'all could explain what you do.

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That will help shed some light on this.

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Yeah.

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So we've already talked about RUF, Reformed University Fellowship, which is a ministry

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the Presbyterian Church in America, which is a smallish Presbyterian denomination.

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But we have ministries on about 180 campuses, mostly in the U.S., but starting to go around

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the world.

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And I am a minister in the Presbyterian Church in America, and my calling is to serve college

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students at Furman University, which is in a very small school in Greenville, South Carolina.

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I try to describe it as being like sent as a missionary to serve this little people group,

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this little community. And that's what campus ministers with RUF do is we go as missionaries

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to reach students for Christ and equip them to serve. And part of my job is to fund that ministry

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through support raising, which college students just are not a very reliable source of paying

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for ministry to themselves.

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It's really sweet.

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Some of them actually do without me asking, give to our ministry fund, which is really

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sweet.

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But my position as a missionary is 100% funded by churches and individuals who are on board

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with what we're doing.

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and Mary Beth and Stephen are have been with us for,

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I don't even know, 12 years on as supporters.

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- Something like that.

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- I actually, Mary Beth before Stephen was around

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was a supporter and I remember an awkward interaction

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of some sort where I was like.

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- I remember this too.

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It was like right after we got married and whatever,

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I think it was, I had had my bank account,

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our financial things changed when we got married.

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And so it cut off the automatic contributions to Tom's support.

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And I didn't know, I didn't like realize that it had stopped.

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And he was like, Hey, it was, yeah, I felt so bad for you, Tom.

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He's like, maybe Stephen's not on board with what we're doing.

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And I was like, no, he's totally on board.

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I was like, let me fix it.

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It was really funny.

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That's funny.

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But we got support relationship.

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We've kept in touch over the years and we don't talk very much, but, um,

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Mary Beth has always been very encouraging

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and it responds to email updates

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and all kinds of sweet stuff.

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- Yeah, and Chane, I live vicariously

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through your social media updates sometimes too.

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They have four kids and Chane does a lot of work

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with those kiddos and they've come out of the young years.

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I think the young years are hard for all of us as moms.

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So hopefully Chane, you feel like you're out

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of the young years, but--

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- I am, but I miss it.

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- Our youngest just turned seven.

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Our kids are seven to 13.

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Boy girl, boy girl.

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I miss when life revolved around naps and snacks.

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Now we have the emotions.

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It's a mix level.

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- Maybe because they're not getting naps and snacks.

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(laughing)

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Probably.

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- Naps and snacks are still important to me.

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Just saying.

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Probably were not as important when I was seven to 13 years old.

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So one of the questions that Mary Beth kind of touched on already, and you guys have

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already, or y'all have already started answering it.

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You mentioned Tom that you've got these college students that you didn't ask, but

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they are supporting, they see the value and they understand and they want to be a

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part of that.

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And they're supporting your ministry on their own.

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Can you expand a little bit more on what is true Christian community?

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Maybe we should define our terms.

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So true Christian community would be the folks that are filled with the spirit

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that are surrendered to what the Lord's plan is for their life and acting that

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out in ways that love other people, if that's a good definition.

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So how have you sort of experienced that true Christian community?

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Any specific examples that you want to share?

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Absolutely. First of all, I would say that living out the community that is prescribed

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and commanded by the Lord is really hard. And at our best, and I tell students this,

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it's best when you are most comfortable, fulfilled, satisfied in Christian community

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is only a glimpse, just a little glimmer of what is to come. I try to set students up to not expect

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to be completely fulfilled in their church life, in their friendships, because the Kingdom is already

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We're already members, we're already citizens of heaven,

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but we're not there yet.

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We haven't arrived.

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And so, in C.S. Lewis's reflections on the Psalms,

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he talks about worship and he says,

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"For our services, both in their conduct and in our power,

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to participate are merely attempts at worship.

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We are not writers, but pupils in the writing school.

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For most of us, the falls far outweigh those few moments in which we were to our own astonishment,

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actually galloping without terror and without disaster.

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And he's talking about worship in general, but I apply that to our Temp Set community.

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At best, we're going to look up without terror and realize that we're galloping.

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And when we see those, experience those, they are glimpses of what we were made for.

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And so I try to set the expectation low for students that you're just not gonna you're not gonna live your life in

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a blissful Christian community, but it can be really really good and in all of my

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experience and work trying to create a community where

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people are living out

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what Jesus taught us to live out I have

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really adapted RUF's philosophy of ministry and try to teach this to students

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that there are three aspects to the Christian community that have to be going on. They feed each

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other and when they do, you get to experience a little bit of that galloping. And I don't have a

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visual component of this, but it's a very simple diagram of three things. At the top, I draw worship

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and a part of a Christian community as you see as having a vital connection to Jesus. And each

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person in the true Christian community has to be filled with the spirit and born again and

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walking in light in the light and cultivating that as individuals and as a group is necessary to

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experience a Christian community and another aspect is mission which I think sometimes gets lost

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when we think about community, but a community that doesn't have a sense of God's mission,

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and where people who are part of the community aren't working together, longing for, praying for,

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striving to carry out God's mission in the world. And that's when communities start to turn in on

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themselves, they become about themselves, which God's people have never been called to do. I mean,

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from the beginning, Genesis 12, God says, "I'm going to bless you, Abram, so that you will be a blessing,

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and all the nations on the earth will be blessed." I just preached on Psalm 67 at an RUF meeting on

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Tuesday and it was about how God blesses us so that the nations will be blessed. So a true Christian

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community has to be aware of and pursuing God's mission and that this is the love one another

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fellowship aspect. I've heard one campus minister say that an RUF group but it can apply to any

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Christian community that forgets to care for the people who are already a part of it becomes a

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ministry machine that crushes people in its cogs. And a Christian community that

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forgets that they have a mission is a sweet fellowship that dies slowly over time.

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Wow. You have to have the mission piece and the new commandment love one another piece.

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And all of that, of course, is tied together by everyone in the community worshiping God.

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So I try to structure our ministry around those three pieces, worship, mission and fellowship.

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You said something there that I think flows really, Chane, into what you and I were talking about,

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that I'd like you to talk about is what do you see is missing from our current kind of local church

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and those three things that Tom just described? I think there's some foundational truth there that

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We can get caught up in doing the church things and maybe missing out on what is that foundational key.

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So maybe you could talk about that. What's the key thing that Christians are missing

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when it comes to that innate longing for community?

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I think a lot of that has to do with identity in Christ. I think we as Christians,

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we think we know what these things mean and we think that we are doing them and then

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something happens and we get really ruffled and upset about it and I think anytime that happens

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it reveals our idols, it reveals the things that we are clutching so so deeply to you and

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that happens all the time because we just don't fully even know if that's even possible the

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side of heaven 100% finding our identity in Christ and being confident. There's a huge difference

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between pride and confidence. Pride is of the self, confidence is of the Lord. If we have firm,

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secure identity in Christ, everything flows out of that, then we're just able to move around in

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this world freely. We can give more freely. We can receive more freely. We're not going to get offended

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at other people or feel insecure because this mom's doing this or these people are doing this.

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It's like, who has God made me to be? Who am I in light of him? That's just going to be different

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for all of us. We're all image bearers in different ways. And if we have families, our kids are different

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people. I just think we we compare ourselves to others so much. And we really are just like

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operating out of deep insecurity. We just went through a huge trauma, if you want to call it.

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We were out of our house for five months. We had mold, a collapsing kitchen floor, and I wouldn't

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wish that on anybody. It truly has been traumatic. But I think at the other end of it, I was forced

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come to grips. I had been operating as an orphan. There's a lot of language in the church about

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being adopted or adopted children of God. I don't think that we think through to be adopted means

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that you are an orphan and I think we just function out of orphan mentality so much and this experience

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has just taught me in the huge ways that our community people came through financially, physically,

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emotionally, we could not do this on our own. And I think the Lord has just really taught me

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specifically. I am not an orphan. Stop acting like an orphan. Have a father who cares for me.

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And again, we can't compare that to other people. Everybody is not going to experience that or learn

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that in the same way that I did. I'm different. I'm wired different. I think differently. Yeah,

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What are we operating out of?

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I heard you say something like, oh, we're not supposed to be going out there and doing everything

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on our own strength. We need to rely on God and him being at work and loving us through

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other believers.

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One that's one of the beautiful parts of it is just like you were saying, Chane

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your identity in Christ and who He's made you to be,

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frees you up to share life with somebody who

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is different from you, who God made them differently. They're experiencing a

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different walk with Him and the beauty of community is that

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God is bringing all those people together to learn from each other, to

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support each other, that it doesn't, it's not cookie

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cutter. And that's where the real flourishing,

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I think can happen is when we're not looking to each other for that identity, but we're

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looking to him and like even what Tom was saying at the beginning, God's blessing to

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us allows us to bless others.

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Right.

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And I think we're called to truly have like a hands-open posture.

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I think we get, what I mean by that is truly having our hands open.

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Like what has God given me?

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How has he equipped me?

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I think that is in the tangible things in our life,

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our jobs, our kids, what are the things that fill our life?

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God gives us things and sometimes he takes things away

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or he doesn't give us things.

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Are we trying to grasp for things that are not ours

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or the things that we have been given?

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Are we trying to clutch too deeply?

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That philosophy, I think, kind of extends to community.

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Can we be hands-open with community also?

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The people who have shown up for me in community over the,

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I don't know, we've lived in five different states

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in our 16 years of marriage.

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So we have had to rebuild community a lot.

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And I think hands-open posture applies to have eyes to see

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who are the people that God is putting in my life

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to be my friends.

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Maybe it doesn't look like what I want it to look like.

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Maybe it's older people.

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maybe it's younger people, maybe it's people who are

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completely different from me.

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But I think sometimes we're so looking for a specific,

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like this is the idea in my mind that I have

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of what communities should look like that we miss it.

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I remember reflecting back on one of our moves

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and I was like, I wish I could do that again

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because there were people who were present,

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who I didn't invest in well,

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because I was so busy trying to build a friendship

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with other people who honestly weren't trying to be my friend.

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Can I just be open to who the Lord is putting in my life?

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- That's a tough question.

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I have also sometimes struggled with that too.

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Like, oh, that's not the kind of person that I had in mind.

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Do you really want me to be friends with somebody

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that grates against every nerve in my body or whatever?

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I often have these preconceived notions about people.

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- Yeah, I judge people based on how they look,

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based on the way they act, based on the things they say.

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And I don't think I really wanna be friends

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with that person, but you're right, open-handed.

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Who does God put us in community with

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and how do we best live into that identity?

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And Marybeth and I discuss sometimes too

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about how we're the sum total

23:58-24:00
the five people we spend the most time with.

24:01-24:02
I mean, maybe that's part of it.

24:02-24:04
Like, Oh, I don't want to be like that person, but wait a minute.

24:05-24:05
Wait a minute.

24:06-24:06
Maybe I am.

24:07-24:12
So it was very interesting to me, Chane and Mary Beth kind of touched on this.

24:13-24:16
You know, we initially were going to talk to you about campus ministry and community

24:16-24:24
and so forth, but when you mentioned the deconstruction of identity and that

24:24-24:31
That is what we should be focusing on is in deconstructing our human frail preconceived

24:32-24:39
world-facing identities instead of focusing on deconstructing our faith or deconstructing the

24:39-24:44
tenets of our religion or whatever it might be. I was like, wow, okay, that's what we're supposed

24:44-24:53
to talk about. So yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I've thought so much about that because

24:53-24:59
Because the people who I hear about who are deconstructing their faith, I can't say for

24:59-25:04
everybody because I obviously have not spoken to everybody, but most of the time if I do

25:04-25:12
some dicking, they have some traumatic family experiences, little tea, big tea, whatever

25:12-25:12
you want to call that.

25:13-25:18
And I think our identity, our own identity is initially formed by our family systems.

25:19-25:28
And so then what we believe about God affects what we believe about ourselves, which then

25:28-25:31
affects how we, what we believe about others.

25:32-25:37
And so sometimes we need to kind of comb through like what are some of the unhealthy patterns

25:37-25:42
that I have in the way that I think about myself, which affects how I think about others,

25:42-25:46
which then goes back to what is true, what does God say?

25:47-25:49
So what do we come through our stories?

25:50-25:53
I'm a huge fan of, I don't agree with everything

25:53-25:53
theologically.

25:54-25:57
Adam Young, Dan Allender, they do a lot of like story work.

25:58-26:00
And I think we need to understand

26:00-26:03
what has formed how we think about others.

26:04-26:07
We do that so that we are just aware of the ways

26:07-26:10
that we are thinking about others, which affects

26:10-26:11
how we treat other people.

26:13-26:17
Yeah, I've heard some talk around that too as far as stories.

26:17-26:20
Are you the hero of your story or are you happening to your story?

26:21-26:22
Or is your story happening to you?

26:23-26:26
And I think as Christians, we have a hero.

26:26-26:28
We're not it, but we do.

26:29-26:29
It is our story.

26:30-26:32
I mean, it is part of who we are.

26:32-26:35
And we've mentioned before, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dr.

26:35-26:39
Kurt Thompson in the center for being known, but he talks about how being in

26:39-26:44
community and a confessional community helps us more truly tell our own story

26:44-26:46
because our story is told to us by other people.

26:47-26:48
You know, with of course, God being the hero.

26:49-26:52
Well, and there's something that's striking me

26:52-26:53
as y'all are talking about this.

26:54-26:55
You know, y'all are seeing,

26:55-26:58
you're participating in both sides of this.

26:58-27:00
I mean, you yourselves have moved,

27:01-27:01
uprooted your family,

27:02-27:03
had to start over with your own community

27:04-27:07
while also trying to disciple college students

27:08-27:09
into what community looks like.

27:10-27:11
So Tom, I don't know, maybe you could talk about that.

27:11-27:14
Like what are the challenges that y'all have faced

27:14-27:23
a family and doing this authentic community. Again, like I started, it's hard. Yeah. And

27:23-27:29
one of the particular challenges I think that we've felt staying in our UF, doing college

27:29-27:37
ministry for 12 years, is that our relationships, and maybe this could be a segue into your

27:37-27:46
tears of relationships. Our relationships with the people we're ministering to are necessarily

27:48-27:55
not equal relationships. We're adults and they're quasi-adults. So it's not, I mean,

27:56-28:02
if I were ministering in a church, I would be a pastor and there would be congregants. And that is

28:02-28:08
a particular type of relationship. But with college students, it's not only the past or

28:08-28:15
parishioner, but it's the age gap and the different season of life. And so what we found is that

28:16-28:22
it's extra hard for us to figure out community, I think, because the people that we pour into

28:22-28:28
all the time can't pour back into us. That would be inappropriate. And so we have-

28:28-28:29
It does some.

28:30-28:36
No, you're right. Yeah, you're right. But like it would be inappropriate for us to ask our students to bear our emotional burdens.

28:36-28:37
Right, right.

28:38-28:47
And so the people that we spend 90% of our time with are we're only pouring into.

28:49-28:57
And on top of that, trying to invest in our church, which is completely separated from our ministry pretty much,

28:58-29:04
It's, uh, it's just like, oh man, where are we going to have the energy to invest in these people?

29:04-29:12
So we have to fight for it. We try to find a few people who can pour into us and invest in them.

29:13-29:18
But it's, it is really hard to, I mean, I think for anybody in ministry, but for college ministry,

29:19-29:26
especially to have our area of ministry so separated from our church community. So I don't

29:26-29:28
I don't know if you got any advice.

29:28-29:32
- It's hard for me as just a middle-aged person in America

29:33-29:36
to find community, much less doing ministry as well.

29:37-29:39
So I can imagine it's an uphill battle for y'all.

29:40-29:42
But Chane, Tom kind of teed you up there.

29:42-29:44
You were gonna talk about teirs of relationship.

29:46-29:49
- I remember a few years ago getting really frustrated

29:49-29:52
with how selfish our students were.

29:52-29:56
was like, all we do is do and do and give and give.

29:56-30:00
And I had already kind of come up with this taxonomy

30:01-30:04
or tiers of relationships, but I was like,

30:04-30:07
I need to remember that what we are called to do here

30:07-30:08
is ministry.

30:09-30:12
So I do feel like I've had hard, hard seasons

30:14-30:15
with quotation mark friendships.

30:16-30:19
And what I found was really what those relationships were

30:19-30:20
were ministry.

30:20-30:23
They weren't communal, they weren't reciprocal.

30:24-30:28
My definition of community is people

30:28-30:31
who are equally able to give and take.

30:31-30:32
- But in that friendship?

30:32-30:33
- That's friendship also,

30:34-30:36
but I call friendship mutual care of.

30:37-30:40
In a friendship, there are people committed

30:41-30:42
to caring for one another.

30:43-30:44
And that's gonna change.

30:44-30:47
It's not always gonna be 50/50.

30:47-30:49
We all go through seasons

30:49-30:51
where we just sometimes have nothing to give.

30:52-30:55
And it takes a person who is able to understand and see that

30:55-30:59
to not then get threatened or the relationships over

30:59-31:00
'cause this person has nothing to give to me.

31:01-31:03
But it's going through, and in the church,

31:03-31:05
we're gonna have a little bit of everything.

31:05-31:07
We're gonna have people who were called to shepherd,

31:08-31:10
to disciple, that's ministry.

31:11-31:14
And then there is friendship, which is mutual.

31:14-31:15
And those are the relationships

31:15-31:18
where we're mutually benefiting.

31:20-31:23
And sometimes I think we're looking at a relationship

31:23-31:26
that really is more of a discipleship kind of relationship

31:26-31:28
and we get frustrated because we're like,

31:28-31:29
well, this person isn't giving back.

31:29-31:31
That's because they can't.

31:31-31:34
I mean, we're all on different levels of sanctification

31:35-31:35
and growing.

31:37-31:40
We're not always gonna be friends with the people

31:40-31:42
who we think we're going to be friends with.

31:43-31:45
Kind of going back to what I was saying about hands open,

31:45-31:48
but I do think there's value in taking a step back

31:49-31:51
and being like, what is my role in this relationship actually?

31:53-31:56
I think we spend very little time intentionally thinking

31:56-31:58
about the people in our lives,

31:58-32:01
who are we called to minister to,

32:02-32:04
who are like the people who I can confess into,

32:05-32:07
who are the people who are gonna help me grow

32:07-32:10
who are not scared to point out the areas of my life

32:11-32:13
where like I need to be able to grow.

32:14-32:16
That group is going to be very small, I think.

32:17-32:19
And then we have just like general church community

32:19-32:21
and then discipleship.

32:22-32:23
So it's, what am I called to in this relationship?

32:24-32:27
- Even just naming, what kind of relationship

32:27-32:29
do I have with this person?

32:30-32:32
I think it has been something I've learned

32:33-32:34
that's been just really helpful.

32:35-32:36
'Cause there are people that I have in my life

32:37-32:40
who are pouring into me and I'm not really pouring in

32:40-32:41
back to them.

32:41-32:43
Like, and I recognize that.

32:43-32:48
And I think that's helpful to know as I'm interacting with that person,

32:48-32:52
that the nature of this relationship is more of a receiving relationship for me.

32:53-32:57
And then, you know, of course, if I have a relationship with someone who I'm

32:57-33:00
pouring into, but for whatever reason, they don't,

33:00-33:02
they aren't able or shouldn't pour back into me,

33:03-33:07
knowing that naming that helps set the expectation for that relationship.

33:07-33:10
So I've found that really helpful.

33:11-33:16
what's clear in my mind as I'm listening to you, you know, sharing your hearts about this is that

33:17-33:23
it all comes back to finding our identity in God. You cannot get your identity from all these

33:23-33:32
relationships. I mean, he will provide what we need. And I do like that distinction that you made,

33:32-33:36
because I find myself in all the different things that I do. And sometimes I'll be like,

33:36-33:40
well, why is this person not on the same page with me? Well, wait a minute,

33:40-33:46
their heads in a different place, they're coming at this whole situation from their perspective,

33:46-33:53
which is not my perspective. It would be inappropriate or unusual or not expected for them to have the

33:53-34:01
same perspective. And I think so often, I find myself projecting my expectations onto other

34:01-34:08
people. And I love the fact that you have come to realize that, oh, we can't do that. We need to have,

34:09-34:15
as you say, these tears of relationship. This person is my friend, my confessor, my accountability

34:15-34:21
partner, you know, my dear sister in Christ. This person is someone that I'm shepherding. And yes,

34:21-34:27
I may receive some things back from them, of course, but they're not fulfilling this other role.

34:29-34:33
But it's making me think about, we keep mentioning that word expectation.

34:35-34:42
I've thought about this a lot in parenting. Of the closer I am to

34:44-34:47
having that right perspective of my in my relationship with Christ,

34:48-34:53
and the more that I'm centered on that identity, it frees me up to not place unfair expectations on

34:53-34:59
my kids, unfair expectations on myself, on my marriage, all these things. It's those expectations.

35:01-35:05
I mean, it's still his hard work, but those expectations, it is easier to get them in the

35:05-35:09
right place when my identity is in the right place. If that makes sense.

35:12-35:15
100%. Do y'all know Henry now when? Yeah.

35:17-35:25
Can I read a quote? Yeah, please. I read this to my students once a month. He's a fascinating guy.

35:25-35:32
was a professor at Yale, one of the leading scholars, theology scholars in America, and

35:32-35:39
he left it to go spend the rest of his life in a community for able and disabled people.

35:40-35:44
And he kept writing and wrote some books and stuff, and this is a quote from one of his books.

35:44-35:50
He said, "Who am I? I'm the beloved." That's the voice Jesus heard when he came out of the Jordan

35:50-35:58
River. You are my beloved. On you my favor rests. And Jesus says to you and to me that we are loved

35:58-36:05
as he is loved. That same voice is there for you. When you are not claiming that voice,

36:06-36:13
you cannot walk freely in this world. Jesus listened to that voice all the time and he was able to

36:14-36:21
walk right through life. People were applauding him, laughing at him, praising him, and rejecting

36:22-36:30
him, calling Hosanna and calling crucify. But in the midst of that, Jesus knew one thing.

36:31-36:38
I am the beloved. I am God's favorite one. He clung to that voice.

36:41-36:44
And I mean, y'all keep talking about it keeps coming up.

36:45-36:50
There's freedom in having an identity that's rooted in God's love.

36:52-36:57
There's just no other way to walk through the world freely, because if we don't know

36:58-37:01
who we are, if we don't have that question answered, is anybody going to love me?

37:02-37:06
Then all we can do is try to manipulate people into loving us.

37:08-37:10
when that voice, when we hear that voice, when we listen to that voice,

37:11-37:14
when we're out of it, when we operate, when we're a part of a community,

37:15-37:20
where that's the animating feature, then freedom can happen and love can happen.

37:22-37:24
Wow. So good. Yeah.

37:24-37:27
I'm just overwhelmed by how well this yeah,

37:27-37:31
how well this coincides with all the things that Mary Beth and I've been

37:32-37:34
talking about in the last few episodes of our podcast.

37:34-37:38
It is as if there was a divine appointment.

37:41-37:42
Almost almost.

37:44-37:45
We are Presbyterians.

37:45-37:46
Well, we are.

37:46-37:47
Sarah's not a Presbyterian.

37:47-37:48
I was raised.

37:49-37:50
The three of us are Presbyterians.

37:51-37:51
So yeah, we think there is.

37:52-37:53
No, of course there is.

37:55-37:58
I was having a conversation with a friend this week

37:58-38:03
and she was mentioning something that she's thinking about with food for her family.

38:04-38:07
And my immediate reaction was like, shame.

38:08-38:09
I'm not doing that.

38:10-38:13
And I was like, why am I thinking that way?

38:14-38:18
I think we often just operate out of such shame.

38:18-38:21
And sometimes I think our shame looks like pride.

38:22-38:25
We overcompensate, but really what it is is just fear.

38:25-38:26
Am I good enough?

38:26-38:27
Am I doing enough?

38:27-38:28
Am I all the things enough?

38:30-38:31
And it's good to be curious.

38:32-38:34
It's good to evaluate what we're doing,

38:35-38:39
but I just think we hear stuff all the time

38:39-38:42
and it immediately threatens who we are.

38:42-38:44
And that always just reveals

38:45-38:47
I'm not operating out of beloved.

38:48-38:49
I'm not operating out of,

38:51-38:53
like Jesus died for me.

38:53-38:55
I am his child.

38:55-38:56
I'm not an orphan.

38:58-38:59
And it's like, then there's freedom.

38:59-39:05
There's freedom to hear things that can bristle me and not feel insecure about it.

39:08-39:10
Well, I'm so glad that.

39:11-39:13
Y'all are exactly where you are doing what you're doing.

39:14-39:18
It gives me hope for this next generation of the church

39:18-39:19
gives me hope for my own boys.

39:20-39:21
You'll know how much I love are you off.

39:21-39:24
So it gives me hope for my own boys that by the time they get to college

39:25-39:29
that there will still be these ministries, your little lamp posts out there.

39:29-39:35
for the kingdom. So this has been encouraging for me. I don't know, Sarah, if you have any concluding thoughts.

39:37-39:46
Just again, how remarkable it is that we've ended up discussing things that have been in each of our

39:46-39:56
hearts and it's the same conversation. So whoever's listening to this, here you go. This must be what

39:56-39:57
what God wants you to hear too.

39:58-40:02
It's always our prayer is that we bring the words that, that someone needs to hear.

40:02-40:05
And usually it's just Mary Beth and I, we preach to ourselves.

40:05-40:07
We figure it's a good place to start, right?

40:07-40:12
It sounds like Tom, Chane, Mary Beth and I are all preaching to ourselves a day

40:12-40:16
and each other in community via zoom here.

40:17-40:21
Uh, that's technology at its finest, like seriously, not ironically.

40:25-40:30
Thank y'all, Tom and Chane, for doing this with us and sharing a bunch of good truth.

40:31-40:31
Yeah.

40:31-40:32
So thanks for being here.

40:32-40:32
Yeah.

40:32-40:38
Any other last minute parting thoughts that anyone has, Tom and Chane?

40:41-40:42
Go dogs.

40:45-40:46
Community is hard.

40:47-40:49
Uh, it's worth pursuing.

40:50-40:52
And the best is yet to come.

40:54-40:54
Amen.

40:56-41:03
There we go. Well, I certainly hope that I get to see you in person here on this earth

41:04-41:11
someday, but I know that if not, we'll be together in community forever, worshiping and

41:11-41:20
knowing exactly who we are as we share the love of God. So until then, further up and

41:20-41:20
further in.

41:22-41:24
- Indeed, thanks y'all.

41:24-41:25
- This is fun, bye y'all.

41:25-41:26
- Thank you.

41:27-41:28
(upbeat music)

41:39-41:40
- Hey y'all, Mary Beth here.

41:41-41:42
Sarah and I are so glad that you chose

41:43-41:44
to listen to our podcast.

41:45-41:47
And while we think that we're awesome friends to have,

41:48-41:49
we just wanted to clarify

41:49-41:53
that we are not mental health professionals and want you to know that this podcast should

41:53-41:56
not take the place of any paid professional advice.