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This is Trustworthy.

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Hi, I'm Sarah.

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And I'm Mary Beth.

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Join us for Conversations in Community.

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Established by a trustworthy God.

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Well, hello there, Mary Beth.

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Hello, Sarah.

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Have you got your game face on today?

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I'm trying.

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I'm really glad that we don't do videos of this podcast

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'cause I would actually say no,

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I do not have my game face on if I'm being honest.

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- I think that was strategery.

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- What a good word, we'll put it in a lockbox.

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- Yeah.

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I am feeling also a little behind the times,

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not as in like keeping up with the Joneses

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or keeping up appearances or that sort of thing,

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but just sort of behind the times is in like,

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it's 9 45 a.m. And I feel like it's still 6 45 a.m. Because my brain is not kicked in yet.

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Well, don't let them see you sweat Sarah. You just power through. I will power through.

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I'll put up a front, put my best foot forward. I'll just play it close to the vest.

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I might have a stiff upper lip today, but we're going to make this happen. We certainly are.

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OK, by now listeners, you're wondering why we're throwing in all of these phrases.

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Idioms, I think a lot of them are idioms. Yeah.

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Some of them might not be.

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You can ask my third grader, he's really into idioms.

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It's good to be into something when you're in third grade.

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Better idioms than other things.

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Better idioms than idiots. How about that?

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I like it.

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There's some words missing.

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We find ourselves hiding behind so many different masks.

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Mary Beth and I are literally hiding behind our microphones.

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I can see the whites of your eyes, though.

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Yes, me too.

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And you can't see us, but we hope that you can hear

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our heart in the words that we say.

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Our heart today is to talk about something that,

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frankly, neither one of us really wants to talk about.

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That's true, which probably means that we should.

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Unfortunately, I think you're right, Sarah.

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We're talking about things like vulnerability,

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humility, breaking down the walls that we put up.

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Makes me uncomfortable just saying that out loud.

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The things inside our head that we're afraid to say out loud.

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Those messy, ugly parts.

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that we don't want other people to know about.

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- Of course not, because then they might not like us.

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If only people knew the real me,

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I don't think they would like me.

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- I feel the same about myself, not about you.

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Just to clarify.

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- Well, that is good because the more I know of you,

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the good, the bad, and the ugly, the more I love you.

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- I appreciate that.

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- The more I know of you,

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the better I feel about myself.

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(laughing)

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- What does that mean?

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You're screwed up too.

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- Yeah, maybe that's not a very nice thing to say.

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- I didn't take it in a mean way.

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- Yeah, let me clarify.

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Sometimes I feel really alone.

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I feel like I'm the only person that's a complete jerk.

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- Oh no, I've been a jerk my whole life,

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Sarah, you're in good company.

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- Great.

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- Maybe that's why we're suited to be podcast co-hosts.

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- Although if you ask my mom,

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she does claim that at one time I was a sweet little girl.

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So it's in there somewhere.

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I hold out hope that she's right.

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- Of course she's right.

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So Mary Beth saying the quiet part out loud.

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Mary Beth and I had the privilege of attending the 16th anniversary

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open house of our celebrate recovery ministry at Willowdale

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Chapel. Wow.

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Yeah. It's a national organization for those of you who may not know.

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It's a recovery group, but Christ centered.

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They have chapters in churches all over the country.

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And so they had, Sarah mentioned this open house

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and we got to hear stories of how God has changed

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people's hearts and lives, built community there.

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And we really got to see how they do celebrate one another.

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It was powerful.

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Yes, it was. And there was a whole room full of people that were saying the quiet part out loud.

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And then finding healing and hope on the other side of that.

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That can only come through a relationship with Christ.

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Part of the time we spent in worship and

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It was very convicting and encouraging to see people who have faced their struggles head-on.

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Singing lyrics like, "I'll bring my storm-tossed, torn sail story to tell hallelujah."

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When we were singing Brandon Lake's song, "Hard Fought Hallelujah,"

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And knowing that that came from a place of such honesty and reality,

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it was not just going through the motions.

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These people have taken the step forward to admit the truth about what's going on in their lives

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and what they're struggling with and seeking help and seeking community and finding it in Christ and in His people.

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Yeah, one of the things that I was reminded when we were there is that celebrate recovery

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is for all kinds of hurts, habits and hangups.

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It doesn't have to be a chemical dependency or,

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or some other type of addiction.

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It can simply be codependency.

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It could be a food issue.

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It could be love addiction.

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It could be anger.

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Could be any type of thing.

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And as I was singing those lyrics,

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I really felt a sense of grateful camaraderie with everyone around me,

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just knowing the struggles that I've had in my own life and how God has been so

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faithful to me.

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It was such a joy to share that with those around me.

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Our senior pastor was there as well.

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And he kind of closed the evening with this thought that stuck with us and

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prompted a little bit of what we wanted to talk about today.

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I believe he was using this Tim Keller quote that goes like this,

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"To be loved but not known is comforting but superficial.

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To be known and not loved is our greatest fear.

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But to be fully known and truly loved is, well,

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a lot like being loved by God."

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And Greg talked about how CR is a place where you can be both.

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fully known and fully loved and how that is a reflection of how Christ loved us.

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So it got me thinking, Sarah, what is it that holds us back from being fully known and fully loved?

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Hurt, pride, fear, I think fear, shame.

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Yeah.

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We work to be loved, but we don't always allow ourselves to be fully known.

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And that's why we were sort of chuckling about all of those phrases at the beginning.

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It's interesting and why we included them.

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There's so many little phrases like that in our language, in our world that talk about

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putting on a mask, not letting people see the real you.

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Because, well, what if they don't like me?

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I never thought about that, that we do have so many different phrases for that same thing

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because we all do it.

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Yeah.

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And it's encouraged.

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It's the expectation almost.

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- Yeah, people don't wanna get the messy part.

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I don't wanna get messy.

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I don't wanna deal with that.

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I can't remember years ago,

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I was considering changing my career

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and I thought that I would study social work

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but from a macro view and come up with ways

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to sort of help people maybe make systems

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or programs better or whatever,

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'cause I didn't wanna have conversations with people.

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I didn't wanna get messy.

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I didn't wanna do those things.

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And then ironically, God put me in a position

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within our church that made me have to have conversations

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with people all the time that we're dealing

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with some of the hardest things that you can deal with.

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And so, okay, God won Sarah's zero on that count,

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But it gave me more insight.

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Building connection with people happens easier when we say those quiet parts out

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law at Marybeth.

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Yeah.

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I may have mentioned this on the podcast before.

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One of my closest lifelong friends years ago said to me, and I mean, she's known me

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since we were 10 years old.

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You're easy to talk to but hard to get to know.

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And that has clearly stuck with me.

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And it's so true.

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I tend to be one of those people

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that I will let you into a point.

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And then you don't need to get past that

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because that might be risky.

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You know, I might hurt you, you might hurt me.

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And yet at the same time,

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That's what we both want, right?

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- Yeah, yeah.

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- But it gets real messy.

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- It gets real messy back in there.

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- It does get real messy back in there.

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And it reminds me too that we need all kinds of relationships.

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There was a time in my life when I thought that having a

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husband would fulfill all of the needs and desires I had

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for relationships.

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Newsflash, he's just a person.

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- Yeah.

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- He's not God.

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What I look for, what I've been looking for,

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what we're all looking for is God.

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We all have that God-shaped whole.

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Our hearts are restless until we find our rest in Him,

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Augustine.

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If I was going to say the quiet thing out loud,

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it's been in my heart lately.

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I would say that I am starting to think that I'm better

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than other people again.

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I already learned this lesson so many times

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in so many hard ways.

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I was a person that always had things together.

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I always was killing it.

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I was out there with my game face on,

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putting my best foot forward, working hard,

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accomplishing things.

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And I had this plan for my life and it involved having a family and,

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and so I got married and had a child and kept up appearances the whole time while

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inside the walls of my home.

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There was addiction and abuse, and I was slowly being reduced to a person who couldn't make

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a decision for herself, who had no agency and didn't believe that she was worth much

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of anything.

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not even worth the air she was breathing. But God threw my friends and family. God stepped

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and he saved me from that.

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He saved my life.

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He saved my purpose.

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He saved me.

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And he's given me a mission.

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He's given me a story to tell.

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And I'm so grateful for that.

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So grateful for his faithfulness because he

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is trustworthy, Mary Beth.

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We can put our trust in him.

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But now here I am.

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Fast forward a decade or more later and I'm back at it again, saying that I trust God, wanting

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desperately to trust God, but then living my life like it all depends on me.

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And I'm at a decision point on some things in my life.

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And in my decision, usually is like, Oh, I can do this.

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I can do this.

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And if I do this, then people will respect me or I'll have more.

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I don't know.

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Like I've talked before about how difficult it was for me to give up

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a career to be a mom and our identity.

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I mean, this really, maybe this is just a question of identity.

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So anyway, the quiet part out loud for me right now is that I'm starting

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to think that I've got it all together and I don't.

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I don't. I'm not better than anybody. I'm worse, well, or equal or whatever.

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Humility is agreeing with God about who you are. And I am an abject sinner in need of a Savior.

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Yeah, there's a quote, but one of my pastors used to say it, that you're far worse than you could ever imagine and far more loved than you could ever imagine.

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and that those things are equally true,

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because while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

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- Yeah.

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- The quiet thing that I'm gonna say out loud,

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and I've been trying to think about how to articulate this,

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I am pretty good at deflecting,

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And lately I've been noticing that I am seeing either sin

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and other people or struggles and other people

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or even just things that are being highlighted

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in Christian culture and maybe even broader culture

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as problems.

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And I will spend time and energy reading articles

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and listening to interviews and going down these rabbit trails

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on these other peoples, I'm putting that in air quotes,

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other people's sins,

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when it's not even something that I struggle with,

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I'm avoiding my own sin by focusing on the sins of others.

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Yikes.

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And in doing that, I'm really wasting a lot of time.

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And I think that what I've been realizing lately is

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how I am filling my time with any number of things

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just to avoid dealing with, you know,

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it might just be my day-to-day responsibilities

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or the sin that's going on in my own heart

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or the hard conversation I don't wanna have

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with my husband or apologizing to my children, you know,

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all these things that I'm just,

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How can I push that off, but look like I'm doing something good over here.

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Uh, that's where I am right now.

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And I'm pretty good at, you know, putting that wall up to look, but look over here,

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this other shiny thing that I'm thinking about and talking about, cause that

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sounds like something that would be good to talk about.

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That's my mess today.

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Well, thank you for sharing that.

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I'm sort of struck by the fact that there are some similar themes in what we both shared.

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They have to do with us thinking that maybe we don't have the same problems as everyone else,

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or that there are these things going on over here that, "Oh, isn't that sad?"

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Or, "Oh, that poor person."

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Or, "Oh, there before the grace of God,

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go high. Right. In a tongue in cheek way. So this could be a good sort of a good way

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for us to be accountable to each other. Yeah, we were just studying in Luke last week in

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our small group about the Pharisees who, you know, thank God that I am not like these centers.

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And then you have the, I believe it's a tax collector that comes and says, have mercy

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See on me, oh God, I am a center.

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And that's where my heart needs to shift, I think sometimes.

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- The whiteed sepulcher, I always think of that.

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Yeah.

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And it brings up this point that you just said

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about accountability.

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We've really been confessing,

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even though we didn't say that that's what we're doing,

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but this idea of confession and accountability

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vulnerability is one of those aspects of true community that really, at least in my experience,

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the church at large is not great about doing together.

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I'm just going to take a second here and read James 516.

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"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed."

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the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

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I know that Mary Beth and I will be doing some offline praying about what we've shared

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and I hope listeners that this inspires you to sit down with someone else and have that time.

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We experience at Celebrate Recovery a confessional community. That is something that

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We have mentioned before in the past Dr. Kurt Thompson, the center for being known.

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They have a program that's confessional communities. We're going to put a link again

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in the show notes to his work and to the center for being known. If you are looking for healing,

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if you are looking to say the quiet part out loud and need a place to do that,

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If Celebrate Recovery is for you and there's a local chapter nearby, please visit.

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And then also this center for being known as another resource, you can join an online confessional

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community. And then also trustworthy listeners, Mary Beth and I are here for you. You can always

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send us an email if there's something that you want to share. If you would like to have us pray

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for you, we will. Our email is listen@trustworthypodcast.com and we love to hear from you.

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And take the challenge to really do some self-examination. There was story shared

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I celebrate recovery last night about how it's really easy to think, "Oh, well, that's

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for those other people. And then you start to realize, oh, I have some problems too. So

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we all need to stop, pause, spend some time with the Lord. One of the most powerful prayers in my

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life has been when I've asked God to show me my sin. Warning, it's not pleasant. But when you get to

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there's freedom.

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And that's what I would hope that we can all do

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is take some time for self-examination

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and then going to whoever that is in your life

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that you can confess your sins with,

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pray together with.

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And as Sarah said, if you don't have that,

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reach out to us, we're happy to help.

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- Yeah, we think of you, our listeners,

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as part of our trustworthy family.

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And whenever you're listening to this, wherever you're listening to this, just know that Mary Beth and I think carefully about the things that we say and we always pray that God would give us the words that you need to hear.

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I'm going to also read Psalm 139, 23 and 24.

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I'm sure this is in the back of several minds as they were hearing this conversation.

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Search me, God, and know my heart.

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Test me and know my anxious thoughts.

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See if there is any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.

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Mary Beth and I were talking after the celebration that we were able to attend at the 16th anniversary.

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And we both really noticed the humility that was present in that room.

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If I would give a brief synopsis of the community that we were surrounded with, it would be

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humble, vulnerable, loving.

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And I think that humility is a first step to create connection and community with people.

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when you're standing in that coffee shop line, it takes a little

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humility to be the person that says the first thing.

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That's something that permeates in any situation in our life.

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We've kind of talked about last episode was about coffee shops, about

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physical places where there can be community.

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Today's topic is kind of the foundation for all of it.

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It's, are we bringing our whole self to this community

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that we are longing for and that we're seeking

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and that we're trying to build?

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You know, it doesn't mean you're gonna go up to a stranger

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in the grocery store and start confessing your sin to them,

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but it's, am I coming from a place of that being a part

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life, if that is how you're seeking community, it affects how you view others,

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how you speak to others, how you spend your time, all those things.

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And in addition to all those things, I totally agree with what Sarah's saying

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about that community.

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There was also a lot of joy and a lot of freedom and a lot of celebration and

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a lot of pie and a lot of pie.

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They did some good pie listening, but that is,

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That's what's on the other side of it.

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It's why would we wanna expose ourselves?

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Why would we wanna go through confession?

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Why do we wanna keep struggling

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with the same sins and community?

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Because there's freedom there and there's joy there

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and there's true relationship there.

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When you've tasted it, you want other people to taste it,

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just like pie.

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- Absolutely.

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I think of that quote,

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we're all just a bunch of beggars

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showing other beggars where to find bread.

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- How appropriate it was, Marybeth,

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that at this amazing place with this community last night

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that there was also food.

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And we certainly have talked a lot about the fact

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that breaking bread together helps build community.

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- Yes.

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- Food, honest conversation, humility,

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putting yourself out there.

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- That I'm seeing some themes emerge.

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- Yeah.

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We're learning more about how to build community.

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Right? We're taking it one day at a time, just like y'all are.

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Thanks for hanging in there with us for this difficult topic.

26:28-26:33
I did find Mary Beth shockingly a verse in Proverbs about confession.

26:35-26:37
I would love for you to share that.

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Proverbs 28, 13, whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,

26:45-26:49
but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

26:51-26:51
- Praise the Lord.

26:53-26:56
- Now that we've bared our souls to our podcast listeners,

26:57-27:01
what other concluding thoughts do you have, Marybeth?

27:04-27:05
- Well, Sarah, what just came to my mind was,

27:07-27:09
if someone is listening to this,

27:11-27:13
and the Holy Spirit is doing some prodding

27:14-27:17
about something going on behind the walls they've put up.

27:20-27:22
Might I suggest you go back and listen

27:22-27:27
to a couple of our other episodes from February of 2025.

27:27-27:30
One is called Conviction versus Condemnation.

27:31-27:33
And the one right after that is the other side of Conviction.

27:34-27:37
Because when we do this confession of sin,

27:39-27:40
you mentioned this at the top of the episode,

27:40-27:42
but there can be shame there.

27:42-27:45
And we don't want people to land in a place of shame.

27:45-27:50
So by self promoting our own podcast, I would recommend going back and

27:50-27:54
listening to conviction versus condemnation and the other side of conviction.

27:56-27:59
To go a little deeper into what does this really look like in a healthy way.

28:00-28:01
I'm glad you brought that up.

28:02-28:07
When we do say the quiet thing out loud, Mary Beth, sometimes there can be

28:07-28:09
this sort of teller's remorse.

28:11-28:12
You can regret that you've said it.

28:13-28:15
I'm feeling a little bit of it right now

28:15-28:16
after what we shared today.

28:17-28:18
What will people think of me?

28:18-28:19
I shouldn't have said that.

28:20-28:21
All the things.

28:22-28:24
That is not truth.

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- Not of the Lord.

28:26-28:27
- Not of the Lord.

28:27-28:28
It is an attack.

28:29-28:33
And God says who I am.

28:33-28:36
My identity is in him.

28:36-28:40
I am a child of God, I'm bought with a price,

28:41-28:46
and he wants me to live healed, forgiven, loved,

28:47-28:51
and I get amnesia, I forget.

28:52-28:55
Even knowing I can go back and edit this entire thing,

28:55-28:56
I hope I don't.

28:58-29:00
I promise I'll keep it in, I won't edit it out.

29:02-29:03
- This could be a very short episode

29:03-29:06
if we just make ourselves sound great.

29:06-29:13
If you're hearing this and the episode count is only 15 minutes, then you know we've cheated

29:13-29:14
ourselves in you.

29:15-29:17
Well, listeners, thank you so much for listening.

29:18-29:19
Thank you for loving us.

29:20-29:23
Thank you for being willing to come along on this journey with us.

29:25-29:27
Until next time, I'm Sarah.

29:28-29:29
And I'm Mary Beth.

29:29-29:31
And this is trustworthy.

29:33-29:33
[MUSIC]

29:45-29:46
Hey, y'all, Mary Beth here.

29:47-29:50
Sarah and I are so glad that you chose to listen to our podcast.

29:50-29:53
And while we think that we're awesome friends to have,

29:54-29:57
we just wanted to clarify that we are not mental health professionals and

29:57-30:02
and want you to know that this podcast should not take the place of any paid professional advice.