0.760000 3.120000 Is God trustworthy?
3.120000 5.380000 Hi, I'm Sarah.
5.380000 7.200000 And I'm Mary Beth.
7.200000 9.600000 Join us as we seek to answer this question
9.600000 12.480000 through whole-hearted conversation.
12.480000 15.000000 Discover the wit and wisdom that comes
15.000000 18.600000 for being anchored in Christ and connected to one another.
18.600000 20.840000 This is trustworthy.
20.840000 41.520000 On this episode of Trustworthy, we talk to our friend Leslie Thomas about how grief
41.520000 43.160000 is like a ball of yarn.
43.160000 46.640000 You never know what you're going to get.
46.640000 51.400000 This episode is a little longer than normal and a little more emotional.
51.400000 55.480000 So you may want to take a break in the middle.
55.480000 59.840000 Without further ado, I take you now to our conversation.
59.840000 63.280000 Well, hello there, Mary Beth.
63.280000 64.280000 Hi, Sarah.
64.280000 69.920000 Um, I don't want to be awkward, but there's somebody else here in the room with us.
69.920000 70.920000 Yeah.
70.920000 72.920000 Well, hello there, Leslie Thomas.
72.920000 77.800000 Hello, what, we just creeping in in the corner.
77.800000 81.400000 She's not creeping at all.
81.400000 85.240000 A welcome addition to our little universe here.
85.240000 87.600000 Oh, well, thank you for having me.
87.600000 88.600000 Yeah.
88.600000 91.560000 We have been-- a true confession.
91.560000 99.200000 We have been thinking about hoping and dare I say, planning to have you.
99.200000 100.200000 Since before we--
100.200000 101.200000 I know.
101.200000 102.200000 I was like, kind of since the beginning.
102.200000 103.200000 Oh my goodness.
103.200000 107.120000 We're like, if we're going to have a guest, it's got to be Leslie Thomas.
107.120000 109.520000 I'm not going to just put her on the list.
109.520000 110.520000 No pressure.
110.520000 111.520000 What an honor.
111.520000 113.440000 Thank you so much for having me.
113.440000 114.440000 Just a little background.
114.440000 116.320000 Leslie is our friend.
116.320000 121.120000 So she did know us before she came here today before I signed off, and she might not be our
121.120000 122.120000 friend after this.
122.120000 125.120000 Or vice versa, the jury's still out there.
125.120000 126.120000 Oh, yeah.
126.120000 127.120000 Right.
127.120000 128.120000 But we know her from church.
128.120000 130.800000 She is an amazing singer.
130.800000 133.800000 She is a teacher in our women's ministry.
133.800000 134.960000 She's a blogger.
134.960000 135.960000 She's a mom.
135.960000 136.960000 She's--
136.960000 137.960000 The list goes on to--
137.960000 138.960000 Shewas a youth minister
138.960000 139.960000 Through and through.
139.960000 140.960000 A creative through and through.
140.960000 141.960000 Yeah.
141.960000 143.960000 Is this why I'm so exhausted all the time?
143.960000 144.960000 Yeah.
144.960000 145.960000 All those things you just like.
145.960000 147.960000 She has a flower business.
147.960000 148.960000 What else?
148.960000 150.960000 There's lots of many things.
150.960000 151.960000 Yeah.
151.960000 152.960000 You know, it's--
152.960000 153.960000 Look, we're not bored over here.
153.960000 154.960000 Not bad.
154.960000 155.960000 That's right.
155.960000 161.200000 Maybe Leslie, you could just tell us a little bit about yourself, and your family, and then
161.200000 163.720000 we'll dive into some discussion to--
163.720000 164.720000 Sure.
164.720000 170.960000 My name is Leslie Thomas, and I live with my family in the Downingtown, Pennsylvania area.
170.960000 173.840000 My family is my husband, Mitch.
173.840000 175.760000 And then we have four kiddos.
175.760000 177.680000 Our youngest is Haven.
177.680000 185.240000 She's 18 months, and she's a firecracker, like too much personality for one 18 month old.
185.240000 186.240000 But we love her.
186.240000 187.600000 And then I have Callahan.
187.600000 191.280000 He just turned four, and he is our class clown.
191.280000 197.680000 I have Holden, who is six, just likes to do all the things, and be involved and trial the
197.680000 198.680000 new things.
198.680000 203.840000 And then we have Kamri, who would be eight this December.
203.840000 208.280000 She's our angel baby, so she's hanging out with Jesus and we're going to go into her
208.280000 209.920000 story a little bit later.
209.920000 210.920000 But that's our crew.
210.920000 214.480000 I guess that's probably beyond being a Christ follower.
214.480000 221.800000 That's my next in line of how I identify myself, and where I spend most of my time and energy.
221.800000 224.200000 But yeah, that's a little bit about me.
224.200000 226.180000 And how long have you and Mitch been married?
226.180000 231.160000 We were married in 2013, is that right, guys?
231.160000 233.160000 Look, it's only Tuesday.
233.160000 234.960000 I couldn't even tell you what it is.
234.960000 235.960000 We're roughly--
235.960000 236.960000 I love him.
236.960000 237.960000 I love him.
237.960000 238.960000 I love him.
238.960000 239.960000 I've been married.
239.960000 240.960000 Yes, 11 years.
240.960000 241.960000 This past September.
241.960000 242.960000 Yes.
242.960000 243.960000 All right.
243.960000 244.960000 Yes.
244.960000 249.840000 I feel like just listing all those responsibilities blows my mind a little bit.
249.840000 252.640000 So Leslie, I'm impressed that you're even just here right now.
252.640000 253.640000 Yeah.
253.640000 256.440000 We're very grateful to have you with us.
256.440000 257.440000 Oh, like I said.
257.440000 258.440000 It's a joy.
258.440000 259.440000 Excited.
259.440000 260.440000 Speaking of joy.
260.440000 261.440000 Joy.
261.440000 262.440000 Joy.
262.440000 263.440000 Oh, yeah.
263.440000 266.680000 It's almost like you set us up for that.
266.680000 267.680000 Oh, my goodness.
267.680000 268.680000 Thank you.
268.680000 269.680000 Thank you.
269.680000 273.720000 Well, one of the things we did want to discuss today is kind of how do we find joy when
273.720000 278.160000 life may not always feel joyful, right?
278.160000 279.520000 There's going to be some hard things.
279.520000 282.120000 You and your family have experienced some hard things.
282.120000 287.240000 So I guess first, tell us a little bit more maybe about Kamri's story and how that has
287.240000 295.200000 looked like both grief and how you have maybe managed to still pursue joy despite--maybe
295.200000 297.000000 not despite the grief.
297.000000 299.640000 You tell us what that has been like.
299.640000 309.680000 Yeah, so Kamri was born in 2016 in December 2016 and I had a very normal pregnancy.
309.680000 313.680000 In fact, I mean, I was 41 weeks and had to be induced.
313.680000 317.720000 So I always joke that if we didn't induce her, she'd still be in there.
317.720000 319.320000 It was the Christmas cookies, I think.
319.320000 320.320000 All those Christmas cookies.
320.320000 321.320000 I was eating.
322.320000 323.320000 Yeah, yeah.
323.320000 325.160000 So she was induced.
325.160000 331.320000 And then I ended up having a C-section and again, nothing out of the ordinary with the pregnancy,
331.320000 333.800000 with the labor, with the delivery.
333.800000 337.080000 And then when she was born, this was at Chester County Hospital.
337.080000 339.200000 She was not breathing.
339.200000 347.040000 And so the short story is she was airlifted to CHOP, which is children's hospital of Philadelphia,
347.040000 348.040000 that evening.
348.040000 352.320000 So this was December 28th and I'm sorry, December 20th.
352.320000 355.480000 Okay, guys, four kids, my mind scrambled.
355.480000 359.840000 She was born December 20th and then airlifted that night.
359.840000 365.760000 From there, she lived for a month in CHOP while we tried to figure out why was she in the
365.760000 366.760000 condition she was in.
366.760000 372.360000 So she was hooked up to a machine called ECMO, which did the work of her heart and her lungs
372.360000 375.120000 because they were not functioning on their own.
375.120000 379.680000 And while we tried to figure out what's going on here, after a month, she had a biopsy
379.680000 384.960000 done of her lungs and it was determined that her lungs had stopped developing somewhere
384.960000 388.600000 in like the first trimester.
388.600000 390.160000 And so they just were too small.
390.160000 394.160000 And so she was never going to be able to breathe on her own.
394.160000 399.040000 And we made the decision on January 20th.
399.040000 405.680000 So this is now 2017, it's been about a month to remove her off of ECMO because at that
405.680000 410.440000 point they were just, they were just keeping her alive for us to spend time with her.
410.440000 418.640000 And so we decided to remove her from the machines and she lived for 25 minutes and then she
418.640000 421.800000 danced her way into Jesus' arms.
421.800000 431.800000 Yeah, and we've been on the road of navigating what it feels like it means to have a child
431.800000 439.240000 that we are parents of but in a totally different way than maybe we anticipated ever since.
439.240000 449.920000 You know, it's that road of grief and a different level of faith, journeying than maybe we could
449.920000 452.640000 have imagined.
452.640000 459.600000 But she would be eight, almost eight coming up this winter.
459.600000 464.440000 For now, she's hanging with Jesus till we get to go to.
464.440000 472.680000 Leslie, one of the things that has really deeply impressed me about your story is that you
472.680000 482.280000 and Mitch have deliberately chosen to keep Kamri alive in the sense that she is one of your
482.280000 483.600000 four children.
483.600000 490.200000 She is part of your lives and you've introduced her other siblings to her in all the ways
490.200000 496.800000 that you can, including a beautiful Christmas card that your family sends out every year
496.800000 501.480000 in which one or the other of you is holding her portrait.
501.480000 502.480000 Yep.
502.480000 504.680000 Is it there?
504.680000 512.520000 And it's interesting to me because I find that that's so brave.
512.520000 522.760000 I think that engaging with the grief in that way is not easy.
522.760000 531.320000 And I think that so many times as women, we tend to focus on what we have to do right now
531.320000 539.640000 and sort of let the things that are uncomfortable, the losses, the griefs just be swept under
539.640000 546.520000 the rug, maybe to be kept for those private moments that we as women have sometimes when
546.520000 553.020000 we can sit with our griefs, but not always talked about so openly.
553.020000 558.600000 So that was a very long lead up to my next question of tracking on with you.
558.600000 559.600000 Okay.
559.600000 560.600000 Good.
560.600000 561.600000 I'm glad.
561.600000 562.600000 Why?
562.600000 569.360000 Why did you and Mitch make the decision to deliberately include her?
569.360000 572.680000 To what are some of the ways that you have done so?
572.680000 574.680000 Yeah.
574.680000 583.040000 So I think to start, so everyone does grief differently and we've talked with people who
583.040000 588.200000 have experienced the loss of a child and they do it, they're dealing with their grief
588.200000 591.760000 way differently than we are and that's okay.
591.760000 596.920000 We know people who, after losing their child, they couldn't bear to have the pictures
596.920000 604.440000 up and I guess that reminder to be there and so they took a different route and again everyone
604.440000 608.080000 does it differently and there's really no right way to do it because it's just not how
608.080000 609.080000 it's supposed to be.
609.080000 616.160000 This is not how it's supposed to be and we are championing towards eternity.
616.160000 617.160000 That's how it's supposed to be.
617.160000 618.160000 Eden and eternity.
618.160000 624.200000 So while we're here dealing with the brokenness, there's really no right way to do it and so
624.200000 633.280000 I guess the decision for how we chose to enter in and to incorporate Kamri probably started
633.280000 639.720000 out as just desperation of wanting to do what we had set out to do in the first place which
639.720000 648.560000 was to have a kid and welcome our daughter and no part of the besides the pregnancy which
648.560000 654.320000 was very normal but as soon as she was born, no part of her life and our experience as
654.320000 661.560000 her parents looked anything like what we had been, I mean I say promise, nothing's promise
661.560000 665.680000 but what had been told to us about what's normal and what the picture you paint in your
665.680000 670.280000 head and I never got skin to skin time.
670.280000 675.440000 I never, we never hurt her cry because she was on tubes.
675.440000 680.720000 The first time I held her was the day before she died because it had finally been determined
680.720000 686.880000 that she would not live and so that's when they allowed us to hold her and so it just
686.880000 691.960000 didn't look like what we had thought it was going to look like and so I say desperation
691.960000 693.920000 to just do the thing.
693.920000 702.160000 We just wanted our girl and so what felt right after she died and how we coped with that
702.160000 708.800000 initial grief was just to incorporate her as part of our family like we had just been so
708.800000 716.720000 desperately yearning to do and so our house, all of a sudden became very pink.
716.720000 722.040000 We, her picture, I mean you walk in our house and you know there are four kids because her
722.040000 725.240000 picture is up just like all the other kids.
725.240000 732.720000 We had a whole nursery that was designed for her and that stayed like that for a good
732.720000 733.920000 long while.
733.920000 738.020000 The ceiling is still pink in there and Haven and Joyce you know they share a room now
738.020000 739.960000 which is very sweet.
739.960000 748.760000 We just found ways that felt right in the immediate to I guess calm that I don't even know
748.760000 754.040000 the word calm that desperation of just wanting her here so we just let ourselves have her
754.040000 759.360000 in the ways that we could and I would say that that has expanded and changed and developed
759.360000 762.320000 as time has gone on.
762.320000 766.320000 We're always looking for creative ways to incorporate her as part of the family in ways
766.320000 771.000000 that are healthy you know and I think there's a line everyone has has that line of okay is
771.000000 776.800000 this healthy or this is holding something too tightly that maybe needs to be let go to
776.800000 777.800000 the Lord.
777.800000 783.160000 And so we're always trying to toe that that line and find what that balance is and find
783.160000 787.800000 it for ourselves and find it with our children because now we have three other children that
787.800000 791.400000 know they have a sister but they don't get to see her and they've never gotten to meet
791.400000 793.200000 her.
793.200000 800.640000 And so what does it look like to foster a sibling relationship between them and her and
800.640000 803.240000 what does that look like in a godly way.
803.240000 809.440000 I mean I can go into some of the you want some of the the tangibles about like I was
809.440000 813.720000 wondering because you know I mean Holden I know is friends with my boys and so I'm just
813.720000 818.280000 thinking they're roughly the same kind of stage of life and there are a lot of questions
818.280000 822.760000 and a lot of thoughts that come with that stage of life and so I'm guessing that's like
822.760000 826.560000 a new kind of thing that you and Mitch are having to tackle too is kind of what you're
826.560000 831.000000 alluding to is as these other children are growing up how do we parent them and still
831.000000 836.080000 try to be the the appropriate parent to Kamri and like that's just a lot on your plate
836.080000 839.920000 so I don't know if you can speak to that.
839.920000 846.480000 So I some of the tangibles so I mean her pictures is as many places as everyone else's picture
846.480000 851.080000 she gets a Christmas stocking she gets an Easter basket usually they end up being filled
851.080000 854.200000 with things that the whole family can enjoy.
854.200000 857.960000 We celebrate her birthday she gets a birthday cake the kids get to bake the cake and they
857.960000 864.160000 choose what it looks like and it's usually pink with a ton of sprinkles on it.
864.160000 871.360000 And so we try and incorporate her into the rhythms that feel that feel life giving but also
871.360000 877.640000 fun it was a it was really important for us to give our other children an experience of
877.640000 886.720000 camera that's a full one and by that I mean there's there's just no way to hold her and
886.720000 893.600000 hold space for her without some of the harder really sorrow sorrowful just hard emotions
893.600000 898.240000 and so they've been very exposed to that we've been very communicative of you know this
898.240000 902.800000 is just a really hard day I'm just really missing camera they've they're they're very well
902.800000 908.200000 acquainted with that but we also wanted to make sure that that was not their only experience
908.200000 914.240000 of their sister where it's just this deep hurt and pain and so we work really hard to
914.240000 920.000000 make sure that they also have encounters if I can use quotations there with her that
920.000000 926.960000 are fun and silly one is she she's also part of our Halloween costume okay the Thomas family
926.960000 933.440000 has epic Halloween costumes yes I mentioned that Leslie is creative it's not an exaggeration
933.440000 940.720000 like they go all out I mean it just it has turned into something that has been such a fun
940.720000 945.160000 and okay I should we don't we don't take your trigger treat that would you know like the
945.160000 954.040000 white or the white people out no no no no no the frame does not yeah yeah but we have traditionally
954.040000 958.360000 gotten our family pictures taken around the fall time and so it's kind of been a mini tradition
958.360000 963.640000 to also throw our Halloween costumes on at the end of my sister in law takes her pictures
963.640000 969.560000 and so she always takes a few of us in our costumes and so for that experience we have incorporated
969.560000 976.280000 Kamri and we just decorate her frame it's the most hilarious and you know that lightheartedness
976.280000 982.600000 of letting her be a part of the family in a way that everyone else is I think allows what you
982.600000 992.600000 were saying Sarah that joy to coincide with the grief in a way that has felt really good for us
992.600000 999.080000 like you said she's on she's on the Christmas card so she's there and it has been really amazing
999.080000 1004.760000 to watch the fruits of I mean all of these decisions were very intentional and it and it wasn't like
1004.760000 1011.800000 a light decision to make cuz every decision around Kamri it's just hard because I just wish she
1011.800000 1019.320000 was here to have stocking for a child that's not here it is heartbreaking you make these decisions
1019.320000 1024.600000 and the lead up and then you wonder like are we doing this right and then I hear my kids
1025.560000 1031.640000 rattle off their lineup of siblings and she's in there without missing a beat because they're just
1031.640000 1036.360000 used to hearing about her they're just used to talking about her they'll correct people when
1036.360000 1040.600000 unbeknownst to them they just they see three kids and they say oh yeah you have three kids they'll
1040.600000 1045.320000 correct people say oh no I have an older sister she's with Jesus like it's nothing and that
1045.320000 1053.160000 that is such a special fruit of all of the intentional decisions to get to witness and then
1053.160000 1058.920000 maybe I thought you were saying about now that our kids are of question asking age how dare they right
1058.920000 1068.040000 yeah we've had conversations about things that I don't think we would have had at this point if
1068.040000 1075.000000 it weren't for the way our family is is currently structured and we've had a lot of conversations
1075.000000 1081.400000 about where is Kamri how do we get to heaven how does Jesus bring us up to heaven the current running
1081.400000 1087.240000 decision on that as it's a rocket ship that's awesome I'm not gonna argue with that right I don't
1087.240000 1095.320000 like well I know so absolutely all aboard and so we have had conversations about just things around
1095.320000 1105.160000 grief and around God and and where Kamri is and where we get to go someday that are not easy but
1105.160000 1111.560000 they've been a blessing and and it's been neat to watch that unfold I don't know if I could have
1111.560000 1117.080000 guessed what it would look like but I mean guys I don't have any control over this I'm just along
1117.080000 1126.520000 for the ride and this is how it's unfolded so far while you were talking about your children's
1126.520000 1133.000000 response to adults or other people that might be like oh you've got two siblings and they're like
1133.000000 1142.760000 no I have four Kamri's with Jesus I think about when my son was three and a half and many many of you
1142.760000 1149.560000 may already know this some may not but his his father had passed away and and it was a very difficult
1149.560000 1155.960000 situation but he had been very curious you know where is my daddy first sometime I wasn't able to
1155.960000 1163.960000 really give a clear answer but when I was able to tell him daddy's in heaven his three and a half
1163.960000 1172.200000 year old mind was very accepting and satisfied he just wanted to know where he was right where is he
1172.200000 1178.120000 right I need to know where he is it's okay that he's in heaven with Jesus and so when I think about
1178.120000 1188.600000 how your children are just accepting of the fact what better care right what better care that's
1188.600000 1198.360000 something I think that we often overlook and I know in my just frenetic a desire to just control
1198.360000 1206.120000 every aspect of my child's life and the life of myself and the people that I care about and
1206.120000 1213.320000 we can't have anyone experience any hurt or pain or and there's nothing that we can do who to
1213.320000 1222.440000 control you are right we are between Eden and eternity and this world is difficult to say the least
1222.440000 1229.560000 but Jesus didn't leave us we're not left as orphans we have a home that we're working towards
1230.280000 1239.560000 and so I guess that that balance of having your two hands in front of you and and holding in one
1239.560000 1249.560000 the grief and in the other the joy but not grasping so tightly to either one holding each one with an
1249.560000 1257.800000 open hand with that picture in your mind and being that the theme of our podcast is trustworthy how
1257.800000 1269.240000 have you found God to be trustworthy as you balance those things oh man I struggle with this question because
1269.240000 1283.160000 my trust in God I don't think ever wavered but my trust in that that it most likely will turn out
1283.160000 1294.360000 the way I want it has been I mean leveled and there's been fallout from that there's been a lot of fallout
1294.360000 1303.560000 from that I I have to work really hard to want to sing lyrics to some songs
1306.760000 1316.760000 because from how I've experienced the the healing and the providence and that it fell in the blank
1316.760000 1323.320000 the promises of God in some capacities this is not overall because when I step back and look at all
1323.320000 1329.800000 the the wonderful miracles that he that he's done in my life and especially in Kamri's I also
1329.800000 1334.200000 cannot sit here and say like you abandoned me say you didn't do what you said you were going to do
1334.200000 1342.440000 no I can't say that at all but I I also struggle with the maybe casual way that we tend to
1342.440000 1351.720000 throw around oh scripture like faith as small as a mustard seed and knock and you'll find and and
1351.720000 1360.040000 ask and it'll be give I because I did that and I mean thousands of people people I didn't know
1360.040000 1365.080000 I mean we got messages from people we didn't know across the cut across the world we are praying
1365.080000 1375.400000 for Kamri and she's she's dead and so I have to re-evaluate what trusting in God looks like
1375.400000 1384.120000 trusting that he is who he says he is and and yet I I can't assume that it's going to be how I
1384.680000 1390.760000 wanted it to be or how I think it should have gone or or fell in the blank and in terms of
1390.760000 1400.520000 that bit about grief and joy and trusting and and how have I seen or learned God differently or
1400.520000 1409.400000 more so through this I will say that um you know there was a time shortly after she died where
1409.400000 1415.240000 I I could not be bothered I mean by anything I didn't care about anything I didn't care about anything
1415.240000 1422.760000 and I just would rather have to be blunt I would have rather been there than here again that was
1422.760000 1427.720000 coming from a place of desperation like well she's not here so I just want to be where she and you
1427.720000 1432.520000 God are mm-hmm that's where I want to be it would probably be easier to not to not be here
1433.960000 1442.280000 that slowly shifted from a desperation like I remember it's in that time frame you know one of those
1442.280000 1446.920000 dates that comes around where there's all the this lore about like oh this is the day that Jesus
1446.920000 1451.080000 is coming back you know whether all the numbers line up are the mine this or that whatever one of
1451.080000 1455.640000 those dates happened and I was like all right Jesus I don't know what's going on but like if this
1455.640000 1459.960000 is the day I'm ready to go that's let come just come on back and so there was there was that
1461.000000 1467.560000 but eventually over time that desperation turned from just like not wanting to be here
1467.560000 1475.240000 and I would say that's you know in an unhealthy way to yearning to be in in eternity in a healthy way
1475.240000 1484.040000 and I I really saw my faith be challenged and then grow in that because I think like up into that
1484.040000 1489.080000 I mean I was a youth pastor I was a Christ follower for ever since I can remember and so this idea
1489.080000 1496.280000 of heaven is not new to me however when someone that you love is all of the sun there and not here like
1496.280000 1501.880000 that that idea of heaven and eternity just snapped right into perspective for me and all the
1501.880000 1507.720000 sun it felt very tangible in a way that maybe it didn't before I'm really grateful for that because
1507.720000 1516.200000 eternity means so much more to me now than it did before and my yearning has turned from desperation
1516.200000 1525.160000 into this unbridled fiery hope and assurance that that's where we get to be if we love and declare
1525.160000 1532.600000 Jesus as Lord taking it back to that trustworthy bit being able to trust that God is who he says
1532.600000 1539.000000 he is and that is what he's promised and oh my goodness what a promise to be able to trust it's
1539.000000 1545.560000 a lifeline for me I don't know how people lose anyone or lose a child fill in the blank without
1545.560000 1550.360000 knowing like you said Sarah oh I know where they are and I know because I love Jesus
1550.360000 1558.440000 that I will get to see them and and the Lord again I think that trust in that has lit my soul on
1558.440000 1567.320000 fire in a way that has made living here on earth not a drudgery up until I get to go to heaven
1567.320000 1574.760000 but just a joy that all right I know where I'm going I know where she is I know where I get to be
1574.760000 1581.320000 someday and so darn it while I'm here we're gonna have some fun and what we are going to live
1581.320000 1588.360000 because that's also a gift and it went from being a burden to man what an honor that I get to live
1588.360000 1595.640000 here and then I get to live there I think that's a common thing I've heard from people who have
1595.640000 1603.160000 experienced various forms of grief is what you're saying when that perspective kind of snapped into
1603.800000 1611.720000 perfect focus there is a lightness about this life here because I mean you know
1611.720000 1618.920000 we can all get bogged down and life here is hard and not perfect and not as you said not how it
1618.920000 1624.360000 is supposed to be and there are kind of two ways we can handle that we can let it weigh us down
1624.360000 1631.560000 or we can live with that alternate perspective yeah but we don't have to carry that heaviness
1631.560000 1639.400000 and we have a hope that there is there is another place and he is there and we get to be there
1639.400000 1644.600000 and so I think just living with that I don't think lightness is the right word but my vocabulary
1644.600000 1649.800000 is struggling this morning I like that but just like that you're not weighed down anymore
1649.800000 1654.360000 even though you have experienced the hardest grief you can experience on earth you know what I mean
1654.360000 1661.000000 like that has not weighed you down it's actually let you live in a new way maybe that's what Paul
1661.000000 1668.200000 was talking about when he said these light and momentary troubles yeah yeah I mean I know that I went from
1668.200000 1676.680000 a I I don't care and I don't care that meant I am so numb that it doesn't bother me if I'm here
1676.680000 1681.880000 there it's it's not that kind of I don't care anymore now the I don't care is like hey you know what
1681.880000 1688.280000 it's cool yeah this this particular little thing it doesn't matter it really doesn't matter
1688.840000 1694.600000 and so when you say lightness that resonates with me because the I'm going to just use that that phrase
1694.600000 1706.440000 I don't care went from such a heavy dark version to like a life giving light unburdened joyful
1706.440000 1716.280000 version and when I think about that transition from one to the other I who am I to not trust
1717.160000 1722.920000 god yeah when I even just see I'm as I say it out loud I'm like wow wow
1722.920000 1733.240000 and I you know it's not going to always be yes yeah but but look what God is and does and has done and will do
1733.240000 1739.160000 one of my very favorite passages which I probably have shared on this podcast already
1739.160000 1746.760000 it's Psalm 27 13 I remain confident of this I will see the goodness of the Lord
1746.760000 1754.920000 in the land of the living you went on raffle me you just you just talk about anything about what's
1754.920000 1764.440000 to come you know in the end of the living yeah I don't do it every time as we kind of encounter
1764.440000 1771.640000 we the collective we of the world encounter people who are there's people in our lives all the time
1771.640000 1778.120000 who are experiencing some form of grief maybe someone encountered you in that season where
1778.120000 1783.880000 it was dark right and someone else might encounter you in this season where you've kind of move
1783.880000 1790.120000 past some of that how do we as fellow believers especially but just as fellow humans what advice would
1790.120000 1795.480000 you give to people who are trying to help and encourage those who are going through a season of
1795.480000 1801.480000 grief yeah that's a great question I think there's that it's a twofold answer one you have in the
1801.480000 1806.840000 immediate with whatever the instant is happening like there's that immediate care and then there's
1806.840000 1813.160000 the long-term care just some quick tentables for that immediate care they still have to eat and
1813.160000 1817.320000 they're not going to want to make any motion to make that happen the lawn still has to be cut
1817.320000 1823.320000 the grocery still have to be bought and it's just there's no bandwidth for any of that
1823.320000 1828.760000 so just show up in those ways and I would say get really good at a ding dong ditch moment
1828.760000 1834.920000 because what I did not have the capacity for is any kind of interaction with anyone beyond like
1834.920000 1842.040000 our whatever immediate immediate family so I would say short-term care tangibly you can think about
1842.040000 1849.080000 like what are the physical needs and then show up there show up without needing anything in return
1849.080000 1858.600000 when it comes to long-term one of the greatest gifts and again this this is the way that we've
1859.080000 1864.200000 dealt with grief so everyone is is going to be a little bit different so I would say the preface
1864.200000 1871.560000 to this is your relationship with that person should should inform how you approach this and I think
1871.560000 1877.160000 you will know based on you know the depth of your relationship what is appropriate what is not
1877.160000 1886.440000 for us there is no greater gift than when someone acknowledges Kamri as someone that's real and
1886.440000 1892.360000 was here and whose life had a purpose and is remembered and I people have talked about their kids
1892.360000 1901.560000 and it's no different if your child is here or or not and in fact it has been such a treasure
1901.560000 1908.840000 when people choose to go out of their way to bring her up or to remember her or to say her name
1908.840000 1916.280000 because our name doesn't get said as much as holding in Callahan and Haven it's just that's just
1916.280000 1923.000000 how it goes she's not here and so it's the biggest gift when she gets included we do it in our own
1923.000000 1929.160000 home and in our own family but for you to say that child's name or that person's name and to give
1929.160000 1935.320000 reality to who got created them to be and the fact that they were here because sometimes it's like
1936.040000 1943.000000 man was she was that just a dream and so when someone else steps in and shares either hey Kamri came to
1943.000000 1949.160000 my mind today and it made me smile or I have this memory this is really this one really gets me
1949.160000 1956.200000 if someone has a memory that had to do with Kamri whether it be I remember where I was when
1956.200000 1962.040000 you first posted her picture or if someone had was one of the people that was in the hospital
1962.040000 1968.920000 gosh when she looked at me and just blinked so slowly it just made me feel those nuggets of
1968.920000 1975.400000 I mean those are treasures because at the end of the day I have not even one month's worth
1975.400000 1982.360000 of actual pictures and videos and and holdables of Kamri because that's how long her life was
1982.360000 1989.080000 and so any little not to her or memory that's a treasure to I mean it's gold to us because
1989.080000 1995.640000 there's so few of them and so for you to acknowledge someone else's child in this case or you know
1995.640000 2002.920000 fell in the blank loved one that's a real gift that we have found to be just such a bright spot to
2002.920000 2009.800000 know that she was known beyond just the Lord and us that she was known by people then that she
2009.800000 2016.280000 you know she matters to someone just picture your child that's alive man it just fills you up when
2016.280000 2021.640000 to know that they matter to someone besides you and that doesn't change whether they're alive or not
2021.640000 2028.520000 and so I would say especially like if you think about long term the longer you get from the
2028.520000 2036.120000 instance probably the fewer further between mentions of their name and memories that is a gift
2036.120000 2042.840000 that you can give that family forever and it will mean increasingly more to them the further out
2043.480000 2051.960000 they get that's great thank you yeah that's uh that's some excellent advice thank you for that
2051.960000 2059.000000 you were talking about holding your children in your heart and mentioning their names and
2059.000000 2065.000000 interacting I'm just thinking I'm picturing them in my mind I'm picturing my mind your kiddos putting
2065.000000 2072.120000 sprinkles on a cake for Kamri you know my decorating her cake yes oh Kamri likes lots of sprinkles
2072.120000 2080.760000 she does we're just eating crayons over yeah yeah just it just I just love the thought of your children
2080.760000 2090.200000 just all of them being so well loved and then the ones that are here with you now how much more
2090.200000 2100.920000 might they feel loved knowing that their sister is so well loved by you hmm I think that's a gift
2100.920000 2111.000000 I'm just thinking about how celebrating her including her bringing her into every part and rhythm
2111.000000 2120.280000 and cycle of your family yes is is a gift for you but also I think in even greater ways for your
2120.280000 2126.440000 children not just that they know her but that they can just sense the deep deep love that you have
2127.560000 2135.800000 I think you I can only hope some day we'll know right some day we will know yeah
2135.800000 2145.720000 ah right deep breath I know deep breaths that was that was great I mean I think my brain is just
2145.720000 2151.160000 the wheels are turning of that's a lot of deep truth you've learned in the past eight years
2151.960000 2159.320000 a crash course in it yeah would I trade it sure yeah that's my humanity coming out yeah I would love
2159.320000 2163.720000 I would rather her be here right I've learned all of these right life lessons
2163.720000 2170.200000 but and then I just think of I mean I've talked with lots of Christian friends about this and it's not
2170.200000 2177.240000 like I don't want this to come across in an arrogant way but it's like for people that don't know the
2177.240000 2183.560000 Lord and don't have the hope that we have like what are they clinging to we know like we want you to
2183.560000 2192.520000 know this because we know and why would we want anyone to live without that hope and that kind of what
2192.520000 2202.520000 your story is showing is that exactly you're saying you would trade it in a heartbeat and yeah look
2202.520000 2210.520000 at all of the beauty that has come from it is like only God can do that right right yeah the king of
2210.520000 2218.280000 lies would never want that to happen you know what I mean yeah I think he he deaths really wants us
2218.280000 2227.000000 to stay in that place of anger and distrust and uh what's the word indifference you know the numbness
2227.000000 2235.640000 yeah like just trudging through and that I don't care the heavy version of I don't care yeah and like you
2235.640000 2241.720000 said I don't know I truly don't know how anyone goes through something like this without the hope
2241.720000 2246.520000 that it doesn't have to stay there right we walk through the valley of the shadow of death we were
2246.520000 2257.960000 not designed to stay there it's right yeah well should we lighten things up a little Sarah on a lighter
2257.960000 2268.280000 note we talked about that lightness that I don't even dare to expect that you're going to reveal as we
2268.280000 2274.440000 record this I don't want exactly this is going to be listened to but as we record this it is the
2274.440000 2283.320000 beginning of october 2024 and beautiful southernchester county and my burning question is when I don't
2283.320000 2292.840000 expect you to answer this but this year oh she already answered the question um all right here's
2292.840000 2298.360000 what I can tell you I sent today is Tuesday and in our neck of the woods I mean I guess everywhere
2298.360000 2305.160000 that has a goodwill but on Tuesdays at goodwill it's two dollar Tuesday which means that is prime
2305.160000 2311.720000 Halloween costume hunting season and so did I send my husband to goodwill this morning with a list
2311.720000 2320.760000 of hey we're gonna need these pieces absolutely and on it like as he and as much as you are to the
2320.760000 2326.120000 costumes or is he just like I'll do this for you Leslie the man let me paint a skeleton on his
2326.680000 2333.480000 face to Halloween so go he yeah he's he's love it he's he's all he's like you know I'll let's just go
2333.480000 2342.360000 for and have some fun so what I can tell you is that we have procured one fuzzy orange shirt for our
2342.360000 2351.960000 four-year-old for his piece of the costume okay a fuzzy orange shirt well how about you tell us
2351.960000 2357.720000 what the Halloween costume was last year okay that I can do well we try and do just things that like
2357.720000 2363.160000 the kids are excited about or into and so way back when we've done is that another clue
2363.160000 2373.320000 yeah it is yep just ask Calhan way back when there's a child's story book called The Little Blue
2373.320000 2378.360000 Truck and so that was a big hit in our house for a little while so we did Little Blue Truck several
2378.360000 2383.720000 years ago holding was the Little Blue Truck nice and Mitch was the angry dump truck and the rest of us
2383.720000 2390.920000 were farm animals think the year before that the song of choice was down by the bay so we did down
2390.920000 2400.680000 by the bay and I was the bay and what did you wear I wore like all kinds of beach materials hot
2400.680000 2407.240000 glued onto a skirt and I sure yeah it was a whole thing and holding was the watermelon and Mitch
2407.240000 2413.080000 was the whale with the polka dot tail so yeah Mitch just goes along with it clearly and then we did
2413.080000 2419.800000 cocoa two years ago we will never do that much face paint again absolutely no and then last year
2419.800000 2425.480000 was we might have peaked to last year we did a circus and so that was with that was our first
2425.480000 2431.720000 cut was it hmm I'm trying to think held haven is right guys it's I told you four kids is too many kids
2431.720000 2436.360000 for my brain she was little little she was little little she was the lion so she was the lion Mitch
2436.360000 2442.920000 was the strong man hold on was a clown but again we peaked because Callahan as a popcorn seller
2442.920000 2450.920000 it's just not gonna get any better it's awesome yeah well and that actually reminds me
2450.920000 2456.680000 you a website where you kind of share some of these awesome stories and photos of your family
2456.680000 2463.000000 gonna give a little plug sure so way back when people were blogging I just started blogging and it
2463.000000 2472.840000 was about home DIY home related stuff and then took a took a sharp left and and then it has since
2472.840000 2480.200000 evolved into a place where since can't really died we've documented pretty much the whole journey
2480.200000 2487.240000 every one of her hospital updates to this network of people that were praying was put up there
2487.240000 2492.600000 and so that still is there if you're wanting to read through the entire medical journey and how
2492.600000 2498.920000 it was happening in real time that is there and then beyond that I've kind of made the commitment to
2498.920000 2506.840000 documenting what it has felt like at each season of the grief so there are posts from I mean
2506.840000 2511.560000 I think the earliest one is like a month or a few weeks out after she had died and so since then
2511.560000 2516.840000 just whenever I can always feel you know the the Lord always it's time to write if my heart starts to
2516.840000 2523.960000 feel burdened with words that the need to I just need to get out I just start writing it's been maybe
2523.960000 2530.200000 the most honest expression of of what it feels like at each you know time stamp of this journey
2530.200000 2536.680000 that I that I could give and so all of that lives lives on the blog in addition to some life stuff
2536.680000 2543.560000 here and there but the the name of it is Mitch and Leslie dot com and it's just a whole mix of all the
2543.560000 2551.080000 things yeah I think what that is life yeah it is and it would be an excellent resource for anyone
2551.080000 2559.480000 that is sort of walking the same same journey yeah who may be well either in front of behind you
2559.480000 2567.800000 we know that grief is not a it's not a straight line I was so disappointed so much easier if it
2567.800000 2572.600000 was I first heard about the stages of grief I was like great tell me what they are so I can move through
2572.600000 2577.480000 them yeah yeah a good checklist right yeah if that's I love a good checklist oh me too man do you
2577.480000 2582.280000 add things to your list like after you've done them just so you can cross them off yeah how did you
2582.280000 2589.320000 know and it takes one to know one so I'm out of shoulder my grave checklist she's she's she's
2589.320000 2595.000000 looking at my computer screen now which is showing our podcast checklist checklist what are you talking
2595.000000 2602.120000 about I don't feel like it describes my editing process yeah oh there's so much in life that I
2602.120000 2608.600000 think I have control over yeah and then the rug gets ripped out from yeah yeah but you're right grief
2608.600000 2615.560000 it's it's it's not even like a winding road it's I think my our counselor described it as this big
2615.560000 2622.760000 old ball of yarn that's just like the most tangled they could get it right in and out and up and down
2622.760000 2629.400000 and and sometimes you go forward and then right back and in and out and in and out and all over again
2629.400000 2635.160000 so yeah we have had several people throughout the years who have I you know they'll get a message
2635.160000 2641.320000 like I just sent your blog to this friend who is filling the blank and that's another tick for
2641.320000 2645.880000 the Lord and the trustworthy column like gosh I could never have pictured that again would I choose
2645.880000 2651.880000 it no I'm a human I'm super sinful but he's gonna use whatever he wants to use for for reconciliation
2651.880000 2661.480000 in new life are you all familiar with Kate Bowler do you know she is so she is a Duke Divinity
2661.480000 2666.280000 professor and went through her own cancer journey and is an author and speak in all these things
2666.280000 2673.080000 and so she has a book called Everything Happens because she was tired of people telling her
2673.080000 2678.680000 everything happens for a reason oh and she was like no everything just happens yeah and she has this
2678.680000 2684.920000 great Instagram series of reading things that people say to you when you're going through
2684.920000 2690.200000 life and she was going through cancer and like just how unhelpful they are and maybe different ways
2690.200000 2694.680000 we could frame them so if you're looking for another resource of like how to help people through
2694.680000 2699.880000 grief Kate anything by Kate Bowler I would recommend because she's just so honest about it that like
2699.880000 2706.920000 life sucks and like yeah that actually brings up an interesting question okay and I know we're
2706.920000 2715.480000 gonna have to end here soon but I'm I'm just you don't want to listen to us for four hours I do like
2715.480000 2722.520000 to hear myself talk which is very helpful for podcasting when you're editing your own but one of the
2722.520000 2728.200000 and again there was no malintent and so I'm not upset but one of the most
2728.200000 2734.280000 dangerous things I think or I will just let's just be they'll say it's funny the most terrible
2734.280000 2740.280000 things that somebody ever said what it's three and a half years old when his father died as oh you're
2740.280000 2747.400000 the man at the house now we gotta take care of your mom like what no that is the most terrible thing
2747.400000 2753.880000 ever to say and so I was always like I'm the parent and I decide your job is being a kid so if there
2753.880000 2760.120000 was one thing that we could laugh now but what was the one thing like that you would know people
2760.120000 2766.040000 to say don't say this somebody said to you that you're like wow just don't ever say that I don't know
2766.040000 2771.240000 if it's funny yeah all right look God does not need no he doesn't he doesn't need another angel
2771.240000 2779.240000 he doesn't need us he's like stop it with that I someone said to me and this was you know a dear friend
2779.240000 2786.600000 who was not right it's always trying to do anything like helpful at all how was it phrase something
2786.600000 2792.920000 along the lines of God gave this to you because he knew you could handle it and I'm over here. I
2792.920000 2800.280000 absolutely you know let's let's put a colorful word in there can not handle it so
2800.280000 2807.160000 what anyone else likes it right right um so what is it that I did to earn such an honor because uh
2807.160000 2815.160000 I'll absolutely not do that ever again right so that I think the heart there was I really admire
2815.800000 2822.200000 maybe the characteristic you're looking to highlight is strength and bravery and but let's just
2822.200000 2826.760000 remember that person is just putting one foot in front of the other because they have no other choice
2826.760000 2834.200000 and so just being thoughtful about that and then finally I would just handle the term God's will
2834.200000 2844.840000 with like super careful hands I think that we do a lot of that we do a lot of God's will talk and um
2844.840000 2850.440000 we're not going to go into that here because again that would be three other times it's actually an
2850.440000 2858.440000 excellent idea for another episode right but just remembering eating an eternity and the Lord will
2858.440000 2864.440000 use what we have the brokenness but we got to be really careful about laying claim over
2864.440000 2874.520000 someone's horror as God's will hmm so those are my uh those are my excellent that was not his plan
2874.520000 2881.720000 no no no no is plan for us is plan eating an eternity and let's um yeah be real careful about how we
2881.720000 2890.600000 categorize yeah yeah thanks well I have to say that as disappointed as I am that we didn't get to
2890.600000 2901.240000 any of your amazing comedic timing and absolutely hilarious comments that usually just leave me
2901.240000 2911.640000 wanting more probably for the better yeah I really enjoy this conversation with you I'm so honored
2911.640000 2918.760000 and so is Mary bath I'm gonna speak for you Mary bath it's fun it's easier for you I'll get
2918.760000 2924.200000 some to drink yeah what what else can I say while I'm speaking for her to speak for both of us that
2924.200000 2930.120000 we are so incredibly honored we are grateful that you shared your time with us that you shared
2930.120000 2935.400000 your story your heart with us today listener I hope that you can feel that and hear that
2935.400000 2944.520000 and we just pray that God uses your story and our time here together to to do to do his will
2944.520000 2951.240000 whatever he's gonna do the cool thing is we get to just release it it's his job it's his job
2951.240000 2957.160000 absolutely well well thank you thank you for having me this was a joy yeah yeah all right until
2957.160000 2976.840000 eternity ladies oh I love that hey y'all Mary bath here Sarah and I are so glad that you chose
2976.840000 2983.080000 to listen to our podcast and while we think that we're awesome friends to have we just wanted to
2983.080000 2987.880000 clarify that we are not mental health professionals and want you to know that this podcast should not
2987.880000 2998.360000 take the place of any paid professional advice all right it is time for on the spot with Leslie Thomas
2998.360000 3004.360000 this is a dangerous road you're going to it is so dangerous I've sent three kids off to school in a
3004.360000 3014.280000 matter of like 30 minutes so my brain is just you know Leslie Thomas what was the last item that you
3014.280000 3022.440000 took out of your diaper bag that you didn't want anyone else to know about I'm sure that it was
3022.440000 3030.360000 probably a diaper and that like should have come out should it be weeks ago we'll go with that
3030.360000 3037.800000 the smell tipped you off it's a very honest answer yeah and you know that I feel we could
3037.800000 3043.640000 all probably identify with all right can you handle another one I don't know can I all right light on
3043.640000 3051.320000 me after your kids are in bed for the night I'm ready and it's like all right I'm an adult yes
3052.040000 3059.880000 what is the thing that you go to that you're like not I'm not going to like do this with the kids absolutely
3059.880000 3067.240000 yeah there's a tabraware full of frozen chocolate chip cookie dough balls I don't know did they know it
3067.240000 3071.960000 exists they know it exists but there's some very strict parameters around that meaning like
3071.960000 3077.640000 it's not yours yeah and the reason I have to keep them frozen is because it takes a little bit more
3077.640000 3084.360000 effort to inhale 14 of them as just like spooning raw cookie dough which I'm not above but yeah that's
3084.360000 3090.920000 my go to that's smart I might I might make a note of that for my future self yeah I like that
3090.920000 3097.400000 yeah it's a good one I do love some yeah some chocolate chip cookie yeah okay I'm ready here we go
3097.400000 3105.880000 if you could be any animal which one would you be something that flies
3106.600000 3113.000000 oh and why is that you know those dreams where you're just like randomly flying
3113.000000 3117.880000 those are some of my favorite kind of dreams that so I think I would just want to be able to like
3117.880000 3121.560000 launch off at any any moment so not a penguin so anything else
3121.560000 3129.000000 anything that flies but like also not a bug because yeah that's how you get a bet right I feel like
3129.000000 3136.440000 as a short lifespan yeah yeah yeah yeah I feel like more people like birds than they do
3136.440000 3143.400000 bugs sure as someone who just got stunned by a bee yeah I think bugs have complexes because people
3143.400000 3151.640000 don't like them you know do they deserve it yeah I was like let's talk about merit here for a second
3151.640000 3159.720000 bird I'm gonna I'm gonna go with bird nice any more hard-hidden question uh we could go on these
3159.720000 3165.960000 all day I'll do one more okay what's something recently one of your children dead that made you
3165.960000 3175.400000 laugh oh goodness which child hmm someone said something wrong the other day and it was hilarious and I
3175.400000 3181.400000 Mitch went to correct him I said don't you I want I'm going to college saying that word I can't
3181.400000 3188.280000 for the life of me remember but that's I'm sorry I have a I have a notes like a note in my phone
3188.280000 3195.000000 where I'm like I gotta add that oh yeah oh yeah oh I remember what it was hold in our um six-year-old
3195.000000 3199.800000 he was telling us he was in like a corn maze it was super dark and he goes oh it was
3199.800000 3207.880000 pitch black and then and I looked at Mitch I said don't you do pitch black that's the door okay that's
3207.880000 3213.640000 pretty sweet when my son was little we lived near a little adventure corn maze place it was called
3213.640000 3224.680000 corn cob acres mm-hmm and this is what he called it cob corn bakers oh because it was
3224.680000 3232.680000 corn cob bakers and he got the cob you know yeah yeah yeah cob corn bakers and I don't don't correct him
3232.680000 3239.640000 yeah so call it that I hope yes just like the misheard lyrics I still sing love my biscotti on
3239.640000 3249.320000 channel Z uh and tell me more about what the real thing yeah getting nothing but static uh which
3249.320000 3255.240000 was a previous episode yeah yeah yeah get nothing but static oh that's my biscotti oh I love that
3255.240000 3264.600000 anyway well thank you thank you for being willing to be be grilled and be put on the spot anytime
3264.600000 3266.040000 all right over and out
3266.040000 3268.252312 [BLANK_AUDIO]